Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Concealed Carry Essay: Rebuttal from Teacher

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Deer Hunter, Apr 25, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Deer Hunter

    Deer Hunter Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,097
    I got my paper back today. 85. Wonderful. :barf:

    So I get to looking at it, turning the pages, looking for things that was wrong with it. I don't see anything. No red-marks on the paper at all.

    On the last page, I get this.

    That's it? No other explaination? Even though my citations showed factual occurances and links to law databases?

    So I look closer. And I found two pieces of paper, typed up, that wasn't there when I handed the paper in.

    He typed up a two page rebuttal to my position. :banghead:

    You know, biased English teachers are a pain in the you know what. So I sat down and wrote a rebuttal to his. I'm trying to be as educational as possible, but sometimes....

    His rebuttal is in quotes. I broke it up into each argument.

    Reynaldo,

    I understand your sentiments. Trust me; I hear them all the time. But in your response to my paper I can see that you strongly disagree with the idea of students carrying concealed weapons on campus. I'll try to break your arguments down and present them to you in a way that might make more sense.


    Even if you do not carry a concealed weapon you will always be protect by those who carry them. Albeit unconsciously. Don't simply look at Texas's concealed carry laws (Which I'm sure you have researched, right?), take for instance Colorado, Florida, Vermont (where open carry is allowed) or North Carolina. Any state, in fact, that allows for CHL. If it is actively known in that state that someone can carry, then it acts as a deterrent for some criminals. They could be looking to rob the staunchest anti-firearm lobbyist in the state, but they wouldn't know whether or not they had a firearm. There was a poll taken a few years back in max security prisons across the country. It asked the inmates what they most feared while attempting to rob someone. It wasn't the police or jail time they were afraid of. I can't remember the statistic, so I'm not going to BS it, but a huge percentage said the only thing deterring them oftentimes were if the homeowner or civilian was armed or not.

    But to answer that first question, who knows? Maybe I'm across campus. Perhaps you'll be long gone before I reach the age where I legally can carry a pistol concealed. If I heard gunshots I certainly wouldn't dive under a desk and wait to be shot, if that‘s what you mean. It depends on the circumstance, as does everything else. But for the most part a CHL is protection for the individual that owns it. Why should you even bring it up that I should protect you? You're of the age to get your CHL, so why would you shove your responsibility of self preservation onto someone else?

    First off, heroes don't usually have large asses. Look at batman, superman, etc. You being the nerd you are I would have hoped you could have seen that.

    As for you carrying a handgun, well you have already said you don't feel comfortable with it. I'm all for letting faculty carrying concealed on campus, it simply makes sense. The teacher who died at the VT shooting died while holding a door closed from Cho as student escaped through the window. If there had been a faculty member present with a concealed weapon the results would have been different.

    Well I'm glad we agree, then, because the dueling scenario is rather comic bookish. But you are right, if someone's going to catch you by surprise then there's not much you can do (not taking into account the "gun in face" scenario, which I hope you realize is the easiest way to not get shot. The closer the barrel is to your head, the easier it is to get out of the line of fire).

    In your scenario I think you fail to observe how quickly a gun can be un-holstered. Have you ever seen the holsters people use for concealed carry? Or the way their pistols are carried? You'd be surprised at just how quickly it can be done.

    However, simply because these scenarios exist doesn't mean that people can't have some fighting chance. The way you say it is almost like a doctor telling a patient, "Listen, you've got some hardass cancer growing on your gut and you don't have much of a chance at all. Let's just skip the meds and pump you with morphine until your kids can collect the life insurance, m'kay?"

    Numerous students tried to rush Cho at the VT shooting. They were all shot. Those who didn't rush were killed literally execution style. This all occurred over a 30 minute time-span. The beauty of concealed carry is that first part: concealed. No one knows what you have. With that shooting, there was plenty of time for someone to draw and stop Cho before anyone could get seriously injured. But that didn't happen, because according to you the current system is doing a great job of stopping kids from shooting up their schools.

    Equating students, especially legally licensed concealed carrying students, to gang members is quite a stretch. But if I follow you here (without questioning how many gang-related shootings you have witnessed), I think I see what you are saying. You are still perpetuating the "it wont do any good, why bother?" argument. When saying "they all get shot", does that include the bad guy too?

    If it does, I'd say that's a step in the right direction. The next step is for you not to associate guns with gangs. If you want, I'll take you shooting one day. I could even take you to one of my pistol competitions. Not many gang members there, though, so don't get your hopes up.

    Again, not doubting your knowledge on the subject at all, but how many "close range" (which would actually be "normal range") gun fights have you personally studied? Proficiency with a handgun at normal ranges where it would be used in self defense (according to the FBI statistic, it's 7 yards) is not hard to do. Even with adrenaline pumping. Reynaldo, I could teach you how to be proficient at 7 yards if you wanted. You speak of crossfire, which is something I'd think of as dealing with squad based machineguns. However all of this really relates back to the fact that somehow you don't think that a student bent on bodily harm should be stopped with equal or greater force. For your sake, let's think about the other scenario, besides the one where the in-proficient student doesn't fire at the crazed gunman. That student, along with a lot of others, ends up dead.

    But thank god there wasn't a firefight, right?

    Something you don't know about me is that I also fence. I've learned the moves, the stylized combat, all that jazz. When I got into a spar, as you have said, sometimes the opponent was extremely random and it took a bit of guessing. However if you practiced, like I had, you could see where the lunges were coming from. It was not impossible.

    But didn't you just say it wouldn't likely be a "duel"? Forget the fencing analogy. We learned the fencing for competition use, not the one used to kill people.

    So "me" shooting "him/her" is a bad thing because he will still be shooting in random directions that might hit "you" or others (ignoring the fact that this hermaphroditic shooter would have multiple center of mass bullet holes). So again we have hit a reoccurring theme of your rebuttal. You are against having qualified CHL holders carrying while in the classroom or on campus in general but you concede that shootings occur and people die but it is somehow better that they die unable to protect themselves. A CHL gives you the right to carry protection with you for yourself. These people are not “superheroes” that will run across campus to protect you, the vehemently defenseless. They leave that option up to you. If an incident were to happen in the vicinity of a CHL holder while on campus, the threat would be taken care of for the safety of that CHL holder.

    A CHL is an individual responsibility. “We” are not there to protect “you”. If concealed carry on campus was adopted and you still refused to carry, then that’s fine. It’s your personal choice and everyone will respect that. But don’t let that choice affect how others live their lives.


    By “a lot”, I assume you believe that is concealed carry on campus was adopted a bunch of students would run out and get their CHL. Even if a few more people, namely faculty and a few students who qualified, would get their CHL I doubt it would make so much as a dent in the percentage of students who actually have their CHL. Many people even outside of school don’t have a CHL, so how can you say “a lot” so easily?

    Some people are not “responsible or mature enough to hold and handle” a pistol. How responsible or mature do you have to be to “hold” A pistol? A gun? We’ve got 18 year olds we trust with our country’s security, so this “maturity” can’t be based on age. Perhaps it has something to do with how you view guns in general. Earlier in your rebuttal you subconsciously connected guns and gangs together. That lead me to believe you do not have much experience around firearms in general, which is ok. Some people do not feel comfortable around guns at all. The same could be said for cars, religions, and drugs. It’s ok if you or others who aren’t as “responsible” as some don’t get their CHL, but like I have said previously: Do not take away the right of someone else just because you are uncomfortable around it.


    These individuals deserve the chance for self protection, just like anyone else. If they choose against it, that is their personal choice which will be respected.

    No, it does not put the responsibility on “me” or any other person who supports concealed carry. Individual safety is the responsibility of the individual. A person with a CHL gets the CHL for the same reason they wear a seatbelt or have accidental coverage life insurance: They hope that they will never have to use their concealed handgun, but if the one in a million situation did arise they would use it and save themselves. These people are not heroes, they are your run-of-the-mill citizens who value their lives and the lives of their families. The understand that sometimes bad things happen to good people and the only thing stopping it sometimes is an individual willing to stand up and refuse to be a victim.

    If this someone’s heroes include people like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson, then yes that definition would apply.

    First I’d like to say that’s a bad place to be in. I feel for you, but that “inconvenience” can happen again. You could have gotten a CHL after that incident, yes, but you would have considered yourself at that point paranoid and always “looking over” your shoulder for people that might try to mug you. That sounds like sage advise for anyone, mug-victim or not. It’s not being paranoid, it’s having an ounce of situational awareness. It’s not “living in fear”, it’s living with the knowledge that this world is not a cushy, safe place and living with the responsibility of your own self preservation. This doesn’t mean owning a gun and carrying it around. That could easily be replaced with a knife, lessons at local dojo, or carrying around a can of pepper spray. Would those people be paranoid? If someone is mugged and comes out of it with a healthy respect for understanding what’s going on around them, I’d say they made it out ok.


    Again you have come back to the same scenario. “Well they have a gun, and I’ll probably die anyway, so what’s the point of fighting back?” It’s your choice not to carry a gun for protection, but don’t push the responsibility of your safety onto others around you.

    Your wallet may not be worth your life, but what if it’s not your wallet? What if they kill you for fun? What if they are angry at society? What if they see you on the street and for one reason or another think, “Look at that big fat Mexican, let’s go kick his ass right back to Mexico!” You can’t equate every situation where you would need to take responsibility for your own self protection to a small mugging.




    I would love it if you pointed me to the places where you pull this statistic. Because honestly, even in my paper there were citations to articles debunking this statement.

    One thing that is different from my paper’s scenarios and yours: Mine are legally correct.

    First off, carrying on Northgate would be pointless. When you go to Northgate, you go to drink. Seeing as how the state of Texas doesn’t allow concealed carry in places that serve alcohol, that makes the scenario a bit unrealistic.

    Another thing is your insistence on believing that everyone who carries a concealed weapon (whether that be a gun, a knife, pepper spray, rape whistle, etc) are paranoid emotionally challenged trigger-happy people who are just itching for a good gunfight. This also leads me to believe that you think you have never truly met someone who carries on a regular basis. However I know for fact that you have, because they are just normal people you’ll meet on a day-to-day basis. How many times have you been to Walmart in your life? I will guarantee you that you were behind or in front of someone in line that carried a concealed pistol.

    You’re still alive today, so your scenario doesn’t work in that respect either.

    So, I’m done. The lecture from the student is over. Probably hasn’t changed your mind, but that’s not what I’m asking you to do. I’m asking you to keep an open mind. All I want from you is to think about it.

    -N. Kennedy
     
  2. MakAttak

    MakAttak Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2007
    Messages:
    898
    Location:
    VA
    The professor is an idiot.

    However, coming off as a jerk yourself will not aid your cause.

    Ignore his insults; respond with facts. Not just citations, list the facts and THEN cite them.
     
  3. shdwfx

    shdwfx Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    579
    Location:
    Go Bucks!
    Kudos to you for fighting back. However, I would have gone over his head with your response. MakAttak is right, though. Your response has a lot of emotion where there should be facts.

    Calling you a "big-ass" hero is about as unprofessional a teacher can get - that's a no no.

    Register a complaint with the department head, your adviser, and possibly the dean. Highlight his crude and demeaning "rebuttal" but stay professional yourself. When grading, his job is to critique your persuasive technique, not engage you in debate. Handing out B grades with a rebuttal in place of specific criticism for your writing style is inexcusable.

    Your chances of getting a grade adjustment or an apology are slim, but it's better than the alternative - rolling over. It will be a real learning experience.
     
  4. Deer Hunter

    Deer Hunter Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,097
    I know I know. In my argument, (this is just a rough) I fixed it and am asking him to come out to the range with me one day this summer.

    As for the department head?

    I doubt it'll do much. I'm going to do it anyway, but the Englisih department is a group-think tank.
     
  5. FourTeeFive

    FourTeeFive Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,077
    Location:
    PNW WA
    It sounds like his rebuttal was purely opinion while yours had footnotes and citations. What is his response to that? If you had supported your statements at worse he could call it a hypotheses.
     
  6. bogie

    bogie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    9,569
    Location:
    St. Louis, in the Don't Show Me state
    Could you also post your original paper? I'd like to see a slice/n/dice regarding opinion vs. verifiable fact.
     
  7. strat81

    strat81 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,912
    Location:
    Nebraska
    "Big-ass" "Dumbass"

    ***??? This is a professor? I've had quite a few young professors and none of them ever used such language. It's not that it is offensive to me, but I expect a professor to use language more appropriate to university-level instruction. The fact this individual is an English teacher is even more alarming.

    Secondly, when I took College English I (in 1999... not that long ago), I wrote a paper on the extinction of the dinosaurs. In my version, they died-off because the planet was invaded by big, red, sock-eaters. They ate the dinosaurs socks and since the dinos had smelly feet, they all suffocated. I got an A. Why? Because it was well written. The content was more or less irrelevant.

    If you are required to cite everything with facts and you did not, yes, you should be docked points. The amount you lose should be commensurate with the amount of errors you made (or opinions stated).

    You should not be docked points for taking a contrarian view, no matter what your so-called professor thinks. Furthermore, the content of his paper seems to indicate that no one is "perfeshnul nuff" to carry a gun. His old, tired, arguments that blood will run in the streets, whites will shoot "scary brown people", orphans will be caught in the cross-fire, and other end-of-civilization scenarios have been proven to be nonsense based on the fact that 48 states allow some form of concealed carry, many/most of which are shall-issue.

    Tell him never to visit Utah for any academic conferences. They allow student and faculty concealed carry.
     
  8. Funderb

    Funderb Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2007
    Messages:
    2,104
    Location:
    Jacksonville, Bold new city of the south.
    florida does not allow OC



    BTW, your professor is EXTREMELY immature,
    His comments could have him in front of an academic review board.
     
  9. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,203
    Location:
    Round Rock, TX
    I haven't gotten very far, but since it is an English paper it should be "protected." I would also probably then put a comma before albeit: protected, albeit unconsciously. I understand this is just a draft response to criticism, just trying to help.

    Is this a real professor or a TA? Although many of them were biased, most of my English professors in college (in Engineering they called them "technical writing professors," but either way) were fairly well versed in grammar, and certainly in the use of spell check, both of which this person seems to have completely ignored.

    Also, was your grade based purely on your argument/viewpoint, or was grammar graded as well?
     
  10. bogie

    bogie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    9,569
    Location:
    St. Louis, in the Don't Show Me state
    Really... Dude, let's see that paper, preferably with cites?

    And let's see the rebuttal, in one unsplit/unabridged chunk... And let a coupla of us po' folks who either are, or used to be, professional writers tear it to small ragged pieces...
     
  11. Treo

    Treo member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    3,110
    Location:
    Co. Springs
    I got lucky my Comp II professor actually let me debate the issue W/ an anti in class. He also sat there and let me eat her for lunch.
    here's my critque
    From the tone of both letters it sounds like you two have more of a co-equal friend relationship than student/ professor. If that's the case I would ignore the "big-assed hero" comment, I certainly wouldn't report it. as to your rebuttal I would do a rewrite like I was doing a for grade presuasive argument essay in direct answer to his rebuttal, complete W/ footnotes ,citations, & MLA format. I wouldn't put a single factual statement in the reply that I couldn't specifically document. If that doesn't change his mind, nothing will.
     
  12. Big45

    Big45 member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Messages:
    619
    Location:
    behind enemy lines...NO MORE. Made it to Free Ari
    I tried to read the OP but couldn't do it. Sorry. Try condensing.
     
  13. romma

    romma Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    3,208
    Location:
    Southeastern,CT
    Highly unethical sounding to say the least.
     
  14. Acheron

    Acheron Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    367
    Location:
    New Hampshire for school, Texas otherwise
    This is why I don't write about modern-day US politics in my classes, unless it is a political science class that specifically calls for it. You are unlikely to change any minds and it causes way more trouble than it's worth. It might even cause you to fail. Sometimes you need to check your opinions at the door.
     
  15. Smurfslayer

    Smurfslayer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,296
    Location:
    Northern Virginia, USA
    To what point the debate?

    First, what are you trying to accomplish?

    Is it to get a good or better grade?
    Is it to learn about writing papers?
    Are you trying to convince the professor you're position is correct?
    Is your audience broader than just your professor?

    In my opinion his 2 page rebuttal evidences a bias that creates a conflict of interest which prevents him from objectively grading your paper. While some of his comments reflect a willingness to debate, others are simply a statement that "his opinion matters, yours does not". That is significant because neither did he back his assertions up with fact, but rather emotion and conjecture. He drew the conclusion that since he was robbed once that any subsequent robbery would only result in a small financial penalty, but increasingly armed robberies are resulting in more injuries and death even after compliance.

    If you feel your grade was less than fair, you should confront him, in person. You should lay it out that regardless of opinion your paper put forth an idea. He disagreed with that idea and took the unusual step of rebutting your idea with his idea and you honestly feel that he graded the paper unobjectively for it. Out of respect, and fairness, you would like him to re-examine the paper without the rebuttal and examine it alone on the facts and qualifications required for the assignment. Does it present the idea objectively and put forth the author's idea as plausible? Does it provide supporting positions or data? Or is it light on supporting fact. Request that he debate the merits of the product with you, not the idea.

    Some of his comments did seem to be directed at thought provocation, others at simple provocation.
     
  16. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,061
    Location:
    S.E. Minnesota
    Ding-ding-ding. We have a winner. This is what I would say to the dept head, (along with a copy of the instructor's "rebuttal" with its misspellings, slang, etc.)
     
  17. bowl443

    bowl443 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    Messages:
    135
    An english prof should know better than to use "a lot."
    My old english prof would give you an F for any paper that contained either "alot" or "a lot."
     
  18. partyharty

    partyharty Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2008
    Messages:
    36
    While I agree that there does not seem to be a professional student/professor relationship here I have also had experience in this. I failed English Comp 1 in college because the prof disagreed with my take on a subject (it happened so long ago that I don't even remember the subject). The paper had on the back page that it was well written but she disagreed with my take on the subject.

    When I attempted to appeal the decision I found that she had gone on "vacation" and thus would be unable to attend the hearing (so the head of the dept simply refused to hold the hearing). I found out later that she had retired at the end of the year was running out her leave/vacation time.

    Looking back I should have fought the decision, but In the end I retook comp 1 and passed it the next semester (with a B).

    Now there may be more than meets the eye here (esp without seeing the paper in question) but English Comp is one of the things that grading is very subjective. The teachers have a lot of leeway and they can (and some do) grade based on if they agree with the subject matter.
     
  19. bogie

    bogie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    9,569
    Location:
    St. Louis, in the Don't Show Me state
    We don't know if the original paper was opinion or facts until we see it here. What we do, we mark it either "verifiable fact" or "opinion," and highlight the teacher's commentary that he thought it was opinion. Then we get him to use the "B" word - "believe."

    If he "believes" that something is true, that is definitely not a "fact." That is opinion, and that is HIS opinion. His flawed belief system.
     
  20. bogie

    bogie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    9,569
    Location:
    St. Louis, in the Don't Show Me state
    My house sits on a lot that is less than 1/4 acre in size.

    THPPT!

    BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT USING WORDS LIKE "ANY" or "ALWAYS."
     
  21. another okie

    another okie Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,850
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    What's wrong with an 85? That's a good grade, especially considering the number of words which were misspelled.
     
  22. bogie

    bogie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    9,569
    Location:
    St. Louis, in the Don't Show Me state
    did I miss something? where's the paper?
     
  23. Funderb

    Funderb Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2007
    Messages:
    2,104
    Location:
    Jacksonville, Bold new city of the south.
    but what if you were describing some property you were interested in?
     
  24. wolf13

    wolf13 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    114
    Need to see the paper as well as the teacher's response in full. But, I have learned if you want an A instead of a B or C, you give the teacher what the teacher wants. Is that the right thing? No. Many times I am fine with knowing what I wrote would most likely get me a lower grade, but I turned it in knowing it. Some teachers can put aside their feelings and grade the paper on your writing rather than your topic, others can't. Learn to tell which can and can't and write accordingly if you want the A.
     
  25. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    23,648
    Location:
    Los Anchorage
    If you want that A you'd better learn to mouth the party line. That's just the way it is in modern academia. Independent thought is NOT rewarded. In fact they find it terrifying.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page