Quantcast

Concealed Carry Response Time

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Smitty 308, Oct 3, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Smitty 308

    Smitty 308 Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2004
    Messages:
    15
    Saw a training video several years ago about surviving a knife attack. It contained actual video footage from patrol car cameras of attacks on law enforcement officers. It also showed interviews with survivors. I found it very disturbing. First, because of the speed, and lethality of an attack with an edged weapon. Second, the spiritual and psychological damage the survivors displayed when they talked about the attacks. One officer had his face filleted with a box cutter - 5 seconds.
    At work I carry a Beretta 92F with one in the tube and 14 in the mag with two extra 15 round mags, oc pepper spray, asp, and handcuffs. I agree with the film - if an attacker is within 25 feet of me with an edged weapon I will probably lose the encouner. I like to think I employ other measures to ensure my, and my partner's safety but vulnerability is a fact of life.
    Off duty I carry a DAO SP101 in 357 on my front left in a behind the belt inside pants holster. I bobed the hammer . I also carry a S&W 431PD right front pants pocket. I carry one reload for each revolver. This is my social carry and I find it ironic that I can apply defensive deadly force faster and more effectively off duty than on.
    This is not a complaint. Just an observation.
     
  2. cxm

    cxm Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Florida, CSA
    What a film on what knives can do is show how lethal and how fast a blade is ... its' useful in that it should help scare people out of condition white, though it is less applicable to non police... the reason? We should for the most part be avoiding trouble, whilst LEOs have to seek out trouble... big difference.

    If a CHLer gets cut up, it will usually be a result of a prior tactical failure... letting a potential ED get too close... going places it isn't smart to go etc. Col. Cooper is pretty astute... his color codes will keep us out of most trouble if we use them.

    Of course it is impossible to avoid every danger... sometimes stuff happens... a blade can do terrible damage... much greater IMHO than a bullet and in a VERY short time. Sometimes the best that can come out of a situation is taking the ED along with us for the ambulance (or whatever) ride.

    A good shooter can draw and fire a double tap in less than a second... average one can do it in about 1.3 seconds... which is probably not fast enough if he is caught unaware... he will probably cap the ED, but will also probably get cut too. At this point the victim better shoot the ED to the ground, because that knife is awfully close and easy to use...even by a wounded ED.

    It is a nasty scenario...maybe one with on way to win... prevention is the real answer.

    /r

    Chuck
     
  3. JerryM

    JerryM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    New Mexico
    [ A good shooter can draw and fire a double tap in less than a second... average one can do it in about 1.3 seconds.]

    I'll believe that when I see it, if from cover.

    Jerry
     
  4. Coltdriver

    Coltdriver Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,202
    Location:
    Colorado
    The situation for a LEO is vastly different from that of a civilian for the good reasons cited by cxm.

    I try very hard not to get into a dangerous situation in the first place.

    My primary hope with concealed carry is to surprise the hell out of someone, not to be in a face off.

    There is a real recent post on this forum of a fellow whos friend was killed by a knife attack, and he had a 9mm pistol and got two into com of the knife weilder. Died all the same.
     
  5. Ankeny

    Ankeny Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,131
    Holy cow, the bar has been raised. I better get out and practice.
     
  6. Imaginos

    Imaginos Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2004
    Messages:
    311
    Location:
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Knife Tactics

    Years ago, I cam across a book written by two ex-cons, Michael Brown & Harold Jenks, called "Prison's Bloody Iron". I think it is still available from Paladin Press.

    These guys don't talk about a lot of fancy moves or cool techniques. There is no discussion of stop-hits, power slashes snap-thrusts, joint locks, etc. Their focus is on getting past the other man's knife and putting yourself in a position to deliver an attack of your own.

    Jenks and Brown make numerous comments about the use of improvised weapons, body armor, and defensive maneuvers used by prisoners they have seen stabbed while "inside".

    All of this is excellent fuel to get you thinking about how to think past the weapon and disable or kill the man holding it.

    The best line in the book is, "A knife fight is primarily an offensive proposition - for the winner." That is what the entire book is about. Putting yourself in a position to do maximum damage with the least risk to yourself.
     
  7. David Blinder

    David Blinder Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    76
    Location:
    Atlanta
    True but can they get a hit in that time frame? More importantly, can they do it outside of sterile range conditions without foreknowledge of what is about to happen? Add a few seconds and you'll be closer to reality, if then.
     
  8. OF

    OF Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,988
    There is a very small number of shooters who can get a shot off from concealment in less than a second. Very small. I would say the 'average' shooter would be lucky to get one off in 3 seconds. The average competitive pistol shooter (all of whom are likely to be in the top percentiles of all shooters) is more likely to be in the 2 to 2.5 second range from concealment. The 'good' competitive shooter is likely 1.5 from concealment, 1 to 1.5 w/o concealement from an open non-retention holster.

    And that is on the range.

    Take knives very freaking seriously. In close, a knife is a bigger threat than a gun. In close, you are at a serious disadvantage, act like it. Don't think you can rely on a practiced 1 to 1.5 sec concealment draw to save you. Ain't going to happen.

    - Gabe
     
  9. mpthole

    mpthole Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,058
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Gabe - After competing in IDPA for the last two years and taking a class with Matt Burkett - I agree with you 100% with regard to draw times. Also how dangerous knives are in CQB. :eek:
     
  10. sendec

    sendec member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2003
    Messages:
    913
    Whether you win or lose is not dependent on your distance to the aggressor - it is dependent on your skill and mindset.

    I believe that the original poster is referencing the Tueller research, which is easy to misinterpret. In my opinion, people observe the Tueller drill and develop a fatalistic attitude in re their chances of winning. What it does show is that an unprepared person will invariable get cut. The obverse is that a prepared person - one who is aware of their environment and reasonable proficient - can respond effectively, typically by moving off the line of force and having a plan to deal with such occurences. Standing one's ground and trying to draw and fire invariably results in a cut, as does backpedaling.

    The speed of the draw is irrelevant - it can take the rest of your life. The speed of getting a hit is what counts, that and not being where the bad guy is going.
     
  11. sendec

    sendec member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2003
    Messages:
    913
    Not to be argumentative,

    but knives are not magic. I have seen knife wounds and close range and contact range GSWs and neither are anything to sneeze at. In a worst case scenario, I have to think that a knife wound will be easier to repair, not having the gas-induced avulsions you see in contact wounds. Given a choice I'll go the fight with a gun, though typically I always have a dedicated defensive knife on, mainly to protect the gun.

    Two seconds from holster to hit at 7 yards is a good mean benchmark, plenty can do better, plenty will do worse. I'd like shot-to-shot times from 0.25 to 0.50 with street guns, loads and leather. Again, some will do better, some slower.
     
  12. sendec

    sendec member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2003
    Messages:
    913
    To be argumentative,

    Wanna bet?

    Wanna bet your life?

    ;)

    Seriously, get a friend to "attack" while you are "advancing to the rear" , let me know how it works out

    :D
     
  13. OF

    OF Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,988
    Worth repeating.

    - Gabe
     
  14. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,126
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    While I continually read about amazing shooters on these forums who can shoot 5" groups with handguns at 100 yards, 1" groups with rifle iron sights, and who can draw and double tap in less than a second or 1.3 seconds. They must all shoot at different ranges than I do. When I have tested shooters at 7 yards, firing cold (no warm up, no previous sight picture, just walk in off the street, put on eye and ear protection, walk to the line, and draw and fire 2 shots when they hear the tone), I find their skills to be consistently and often significantly worse than what they can do after just a few minutes of warmup.

    Since we are talking about self defense sorts of shootings, more than likely what we are talking about is street officers who carry open, but with thumb break or other similar retention holsters, or citizens carrying concealed. I have only tested folks carrying concealed, no officers, but from what I have seen, thumb break and retention sorts of holsters tend to hamper the draw a little less than for folks carrying concealed, assuming everything in the draw happens properly in both cases.

    While far from scientifically replicated tests, what I find is that shooters drawing from concealment, cold, just after they walk in off the street, have some real issues to overcome in order to be effective in real life. Here are some examples of the problems.
    1. entanglement in concealment garment during draw (hand or gun)
    2. entanglement in a shirt that has unexpectantly come partially untucked around the gun and under the concealment garment (hand or gun)
    3. trouble getting a proper grip as the carry gun has managed to rock slightly during the day's travels and is no longer in the ideal grip and draw position.
    4. shots are less than impressive in regard to grouping with groups less than 6" not being common. Some folks even manage to miss with half of the double tap.
    5. double taps are not double taps, but a slow pair with as much as a half second or more between shots.
    6. shot times are pretty slow and most seem lucky to have the first shot off by 1.75 seconds, but most were at the 2+ mark. Completed times for both shots were in the 2.25-3.0 range.
    7. After shooting a box or two of ammo, these same folks could consistently produce groups less than 6" at 7 yards and in under 2 seconds when drawing from concealment and their double taps would be between 0.2 and 0.35 seconds.

    Keep in mind that these tests were for people who were shooting cold, but who knew they were going to draw and shoot and were already stationary and facing their target. They are already completely oriented to what they need to do and are not bogged down with issues such as identifying a threat, assessing the threat's potential, assessing what other factors may come into play such as bystanders, etc. No doubt some are contemplating whether or not they really want to try to shoot the threat or if they really feel like they need to shoot the threat.

    If you get a chance to see security videos or cop dash cams where some armed conflict goes down, a significant amount of time is lost in the initial orientation of what is going on, even with situationally aware folks. The event starts where the bad guy draws a weapon and is spotted, but there is a time delay before reaction where the good guys are apparently contemplating if what they are seeing is real or if they are correctly seeing what they think they are seeing. In some, you can start counting Mississippis before the good guys get off a first shot, usually somewhere around 4 seconds or more after the threat starts to act.

    I look forward to the day when one of those hotshot super stud shooters who can draw and fire a double tap, full power ammo (not the wimpy reduced recoil target loads), from concealment, drawing from standard carry gear (no race holsters), at 7 yards, and produce a shot group of less than 6" in less than 1 second or even in the apallingly slow 1.3 seconds, consistently. When I finally meet that person, I will be contracting him/her for private lessons. So far, those people seem to be more of a cyber space and TV fantasy who never go to the ranges I go to and who certainly are in very low numbers.
     
  15. OF

    OF Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,988
    Good points, Spy.
     
  16. MBane666

    MBane666 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    244
    Spy;

    You might want to contact:

    • Todd Jarrett
    • Rob Leatham
    • Jerry Miculek
    • Dave Sevigny

    You'll have a hard time reaching them because of their extensive police and military training commitments. On one episode of SHOOTING GALLERY, we have Todd shooting a SUB-4 SECOND El Prez (3 targets 10 yards away-turn-draw-2 shots on each-reload-2 shots on each) with an iron-sighted .40 Para. There was one edge hit; the other 11 were center mass. The ammo was out-of-the-box 180-grainers. We captured it on 2 cameras; I verified the time myself.

    Seriously though, I agree with all your points on problems with CCW holders and the draw. I teach and recommend "going to the gun" as soon as possible, given the style of carry and the situation. By "going to the gun," I mean achieve your grip on the gun if possible BEFORE the situation goes south. This is in keeping with a Walt Rauch maxim (now attributed to everybody and his dog Fred, but I first heard it from Walt around 1979) that "the best place to carry a gun is in your hand."

    It's pretty easy with pocket carry, a crossdraw behind a partially zipped jacket, a photographer's vest like the ones from SIGTAC that allow you to unzip a center zipper on the vest on the side of the carry or an off-body carry bag of some sort. I also heartily recommend moving the gun from it's carry position to a jacket pocket and keeping it in hand for a high risk situation (for example, a woman walking to her car in a parking garage late at night).

    This has served me WELL in a couple of tight situation.

    mb
     
  17. David Blinder

    David Blinder Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    76
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Michael,

    There is an apples to oranges difference between a world class shooter, warmed up, knowing that in the next few seconds, he will be shooting when the audio cue tells him "GO" and there is no decision to be made about whether to go or not, what needs to be shot and how many times versus Joe Citizen doing it cold with no advance warning or planning time and having to figure out if something needs to be done and if so, what? The interpretation/decision eats up substantially more time than the actual time to get shots off. That's not taking anything away from the guys you mentioned but it's important for us mere mortals to maintain a proper perspective.
     
  18. El Rojo

    El Rojo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,540
    Location:
    The People's Republik of California
    I would like to add my agreement that times on the range and times in the actual scenario are going to vary. I can get my 2 shots off out of my kydex holster in under 1.5 seconds at 10 feet. It takes me just about 2 seconds +- .25 from concealment.

    Here is the kicker. One night I was shooting a THR postal match in the headlights of my car. I had my gun on my hip and was putting stuff away. I had moved my half silloute target to the back of my car. As I was getting my head out of the front door, I looked back and about crapped myself becase there was this man standing there by my back door! Did I draw and double tap him? No, my brain was wheeling because I was in the sticks, it was night, and suddenly there was this man there. I would say at least a good 1-3 seconds passed before I fully evaluated the situation. I was relieved to finally evaluate the man was not a threat, but my half silloute target! I ended up shooting him anyway afterwards because he made me mad that he got he jump on me while I was armed and I didn't cap him in under 2 seconds. The beep of your timer and the sight of someone with a knife running at you is not quite the same.

    So situational awareness is the key. If you are walking down the street and suddenly a man is running at you with a knife in his hand, you might get cut because it is going to take you a few seconds to realize this is a condition red scenario. If you have already talked to the guy or he isn't intent on cutting you without warning, then your odds are quite a bit better. The thing we have to realize is just because we carry guns, doesn't mean we aren't going to lose. It just might be your time to go. However, at least we have better odds by default than someone without a gun. So keep practicing and keep your head on a swivel.
     
  19. mete

    mete Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    3,579
    Location:
    NY
    Double tap in one second works at close range , like 6' .The only way you can get extra time is to always be alert and aware of your surroundings !!
     
  20. OF

    OF Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,988
    Bears repeating.

    - Gabe
     
  21. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,126
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    MBane666,
    I never said it could not be done. What I said what that for all those people I read about that make fantastic shooting claims, none shoot at my ranges.

    Also, I don't seem to be able to find too many posts by those professionals on gun forums where they make extraordinary claims. I just see them doing it on TV in highly unrealistic circumstances as compared to concealed carry circumstances.

    My point is that there are a lot of folks who claim extraoridinary gun skills and that I am shocked that with so many making the claims, we never seem to cross paths at the ranges where I shoot.

    With that said, there are some really good shooters I do see in real life, but they are still a far cry from the professionals you mentioned.

    DNS
     
  22. sendec

    sendec member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2003
    Messages:
    913
    I've always wondered how many "takes" are shot for those shooting shows......

    The examples cited of pro shooters and equipment is like claiming that Dale Junior and his NASCAR ride are the ultimate in pursuit driving. Hardly an apt comparison.......

    I do not think the likes of these gamesmen training police and mil means a whole lot. There just isnt that much in common other than loud noises. Competition doesnt translate well to reality and vice versa.
     
  23. JerryM

    JerryM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    New Mexico
    Someone, I think it was Sheriff Jim Wilson, once said the he had been asked that if a gunfight were between the old time gunfighters and the modern day gunfighters who would win.

    He said that if it came to that, he would pick the old time gun fighter. The modern day gunfighter would think "I will kill you if I have to." The old time gunfighters would think, "I will kill you if I can." That difference makes a split second of difference that would put the average on the side of the old ones.

    I think I might think much the same as to response times. It is true that some of the shooters today are unbelievably fast. But as has been said, that is on the range, with special guns and holsters, maybe after a warm up, and does not leave any doubt as to whether you will need to shoot.

    If one were in a parking lot or elsewhere, and suddenly the situation developed, you would have to access the situation, including others in the line of fire, drawing cold from cover, and considering those around and with you, and deciding if you really needed to use deadly force.

    I just do not believe that anyone is going to be able to draw and fire in a second or second and a half under those conditions. I suspect 2 seconds would be a very good time.

    The games might be fun, and the shooters superb shots, but the real world is much different, and that difference is time, and adrenaline. I suspect some very fast shooters would freeze and maybe not get off a shot. Others would do well but not at the speed they demonstrate in competition with their guns.

    Jerry
     
  24. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,126
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    So Jerry, if you come to my range, can you help me learn to make the double tap in the 1-1.3 second time in a non-real world gun range experience?

    For the real world stuff, I will go back to counting Mississippis.
     
  25. 444

    444 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    8,312
    Location:
    Ohio
    Within the last year I took a defensive handgun shooting class. It was a four day class and at the end of the class, everyone was pretty tuned up. We had been shooting these drills for four solid days.
    In the final skills test, the first stage had you standing on the three yard line. The targets turn, and then turn back in 1.5 seconds. You were supposed to draw from "concealment" and make a SINGLE head shot in that 1.5 secons. You have your handgun in a belt holster with a concealment garment (not my normal inside the waistband holster but a regular belt holster with a long shirt covering it). We knew exactly what was going to happen. We didn't know exactly when the targets were going to turn, but we knew they were going to turn within the next few seconds and we knew we were going to shoot them. We were about as warmed up as we could possibly be.
    There were many people in the class that could not do it. They either couldn't get the shot off in time, or they didn't make the hit.
    To me, this speaks volumes about how the situation would unfold in reality. As Double Naught Spy and others mentioned. In a real situation, you would probably be wearing a holster that was more difficult to draw from, you would be scared to death, you might be unsure if you need to shoot until the last second, hopefully you would be trying to get away, the target would be moving, there might be more than one attacker, you wouldn't be "warmed up" .........................................................
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice