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Condition 3 with striker-fired pistol

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Blue Brick, Sep 23, 2013.

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  1. Blue Brick

    Blue Brick Member

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    Any thoughts about carrying striker-fired pistol in condition 3?

    I have heard of some hand loaders loading a functional “blank” cartridge in the chamber, so the action would cycle a live round yet not harm anyone if an accidental discharge occurred.
     
  2. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    I have a Taurus 709s as my EDC. While it does have an external safety, I only use it when reholstering the gun. Otherwise, it remains off. The Glock-ish safe action trigger, my brain and my trigger finger act as the only safety features I need.

    As for loading a blank in the chamber... heck no. If I ever need to pull and fire the gun I do not want to be hampered by needing a second trigger pull, complete with target reacquisition, before it becomes effective.

    AD/ND can an do happen, but the odds of them happening are about the same as having to shoot in set defense, maybe less.

    So generally speaking, I do not want a blank loaded in a gun I carry in a life or death situation.
     
  3. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    If your gonna carry in condition 3 buy an all steel pistol so it can be used more effectively as a blunt object than a plastic fantastic.
     
  4. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    If that's your choice, only you can determine what best fits your needs.

    Forget the blank, though. It won't cycle the slide because there isn't a large enough reactive mass. Blank-firing autopistols are specifically designed to fire blanks. Modifying a pistol to funtion with blanks would render it useless for live ammo.
     
  5. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    A blank at close range can be just as lethal as a live round.

    Makes about as much sense as carrying a revolver with a blank for the first shot. Though I think I heard that once upon a time French policemen would carry a revolver with 2 blanks, then 2 wax bullets, then finally 2 live rounds.
     
  6. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    No way I'd carry Condition 3, as the study I've done into violent encounters indicates that a very great many of them happen extremely quickly and very close-in (often in contact range) and not always with two hands free to prepare the gun to work.

    If I need to pull the gun, I'm going to have that gun ready to go NOW.

    I don't agree that there are benefits to having the gun not ready to fire, and certainly couldn't trade those non-benefits for the ability to use the gun immediately, and one-handed if necessary.

    (And a functional blank? Good heavens no, for several reasons.)
     
  7. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    Condition 3 in a striker fired pistol? Why? To promote an illusion of safety?

    Modern pistols have a striker/firing pin block that must be activated by fully pressing the trigger to the rear in order for the striker/firing pin to be released to touch the cartridge primer.
     
  8. Godsgunman

    Godsgunman Member

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    Might as well carry a big stick, you'll defend yourself much easier than having a striker fired in con 3.
     
  9. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    Are we talking a modern striker fired pistol thst has several redundant safety systems built into the trigger assembly like a Glock, XDM, M&P, etc? Or are we talking about an older striker fired small caliber pocket pistol that may not be so safe?

    Are we carrying in a modern holster that covers the trigger or are we using some kind of questionable improvised carry (dropped in a pocket, Mexican carry)?

    In general, I think Condition 3 carry is a bad idea. I can think of four real life shooting incidents off the top of my head where the CHL didn't have a free uninjured hand available when it came time to pull the trigger. Consequences would have been bad for all of them if they had to also rack the slide. However, there are some very narrow circumstances where Condition 3 carry is necessary for safety.
     
  10. dbp

    dbp Member

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    What would those be?
     
  11. Blackstone

    Blackstone Member

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    I believe the Israelis carry in condition 3.

    That said, this video was posted in a topic a few months ago - an attempted armed robbery of a man in a car. Of note is him pushing and struggling with the bad guy, while he accesses his weapon. I doubt he could've deployed his weapon as hastily as he did if he had to cycle the slide first.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBUG2sP9mlw
     
  12. tuj

    tuj Member

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    My wife was on a SD case where the defendant was carrying condition 3. He managed to rack and get rounds on target while being attacked with a knife, but I certainly don't keep my pistols loaded like that.
     
  13. David E

    David E Member

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    A "functional blank" chambered in a functional semi-auto?

    I'll believe it when I see it.

    Incredibly stupid idea, even if it worked.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  14. TacticsWithPractice

    TacticsWithPractice Member

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    IMHO, if you are not comfortable with carrying your striker fired pistol in condition one, if equipped with safety, or in condition zero as required with a Glock; you need more practice or need to choose a weapon you are more comfortable with.

    The time needed to rack your slide in a close quarters attack with the adrenaline shock most will be enduring, is more than enough for a lucky assailant to gain possession of your weapon.
     
  15. Blue Brick

    Blue Brick Member

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    Well opinion seems to say no to condition 3. Do you feel the same way with a single action revolver?
     
  16. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    As I alluded to in my post:

    1. When you have an older firearm that isn't safe to carry in Condition 1 - sometimes people have to use what they have and what they have is an old, cheap handgun. It isn't the best solution; but it can be a solution.

    2. When you are improvising a carry system for a short, single-action style trigger and don't have a proper holster (i.e. tucking a Glock in your waistband or dropping a Glock in your pocket with no pocket holster). Again, not the ideal solution but if due to poor planning you don't have a proper holster, it is a solution.

    3. If you are not sufficiently trained and confident to carry a gun that way. There was a story here from 2012 about a father who was pocket carrying a Glock and shot himself while sitting in the car waiting on his wife. He bled out in front of his children and died. As much as I hate to see people carrying Condition 3 because they don't understand their gun, it sure beats stories like that because they don't understand their gun.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  17. TacticsWithPractice

    TacticsWithPractice Member

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    As far as a single action revolver goes, i would never consider using one as a carry gun. I prefer "condition one", for lack of better term as my mil pro is striker fired, however i will take the safety off if i feel like i may be headed for a questionable situation, given the ability and time to do so.she still has a lot of take up in single action mode, full trigger coverage in holster, and a firing pin safety. There is just something i like about an external safety, as i have always included it in every practice presentation i have ever preformed, so it is second nature to disengage it. Would rather be as safe as possible.

    A single action revolver carried on my side would be hammer down though, because it is not as time consuming to pull a hammer back as it is to connect hands to rack a slide. Condition two.

    As far as the unfortunate fellow who shot himself in the leg, he should have never put any weapon, especially one with no manual safety, on his person minus a proper holster.
     
  18. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    A single action revolver differs from a modern striker fired pistol in a number of ways - for one, the striker fired pistol is drop safe when carried in Condition 1, where a single action revolver may not be. Second, a single action revolver typically has a very short, light trigger compared to a modern striker fired pistol.

    Finally, you can't really carry a single action revolver in Condition 3 - even if you carry it with an empty chamber under the hammer, the cylinder will revolve as you cock the hammer and give you a live round without any additional work on your part. This is much different than a semi-auto (and can also be done more quickly and one handed). It is more comparable to carrying a semi-auto pistol in Condition 2.
     
  19. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    As Jeff Cooper explained to me some years ago, the "Conditions" were originally coined to describe the states of readiness of a 1911 (or other single action auto-loader)

    • Condition 0 -- loaded magazine inserted, round in the chamber, hammer cocked, and safety disengaged;

    • Condition 1 -- loaded magazine inserted, round in the chamber, hammer cocked, and safety engaged;

    • Condition 2 -- loaded magazine inserted, round in the chamber, hammer down, and safety disengaged (necessarily, since on a 1911 the safety can not be engaged with the hammer down);

    • Condition 3 -- loaded magazine inserted, chamber empty ( and generally hammer down, safety disengaged -- although it's really not material to Condition 3);

    • Condition 4 -- loaded magazine not inserted, chamber empty.

    The "Conditions" can be roughly applicable to other auto-loaders. However, they really don't mean anything with a revolver.
     
  20. David E

    David E Member

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    It's a bad solution usually brought about by misplaced priorities.

    Poor planning that is once again brought about by misplaced priorities.

    Get trained. It should be a priority.

    Tragic tho that was, the guy was foolish to carry a holsterless Glock in his pocket.

    The actions of fools that suffer avoidable consequences is hardly a standard for the rest of us.
     
  21. sidheshooter

    sidheshooter Member

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    I sometimes carry my beretta M34 in condition 3...

    to the range, in the gear bag, with the eyes, ears and ammo.

    No way would I carry a defensive arm in con3. A good cane would be better in many scenarios.

    I could certainly see con3 of a Glock in the same situation as above; in the bag with other iron on the way to the range. But on the clock? Not me.
     
  22. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    Bartholomew Roberts writes:

    I suppose you could if the chamber under the hammer, and the one after that were empty.. if you really wanted to complicate things.. :evil:
     
  23. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    I suppose you could if the chamber under the hammer, and the one after that were empty..

    Or you could be REALLY safe and carry it completely empty, and load it just before firing.

    Or just leave it at home.

    C'mon, folks... we'll consider this one asked and answered at this point.
     
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