Confrontation with a mountain biker

[Ham Hock]

I have had several occasions where I was accused of doing something illegal and I was not (these occasions were not gun related).

What I do now is if someone acts like that I simply tell them to call the police if they think I am doing something illegal. If I am in a car when it happens, I remind them to be sure and get my license plate. Usually this shuts them up. Basicly, put up or shut up.

 

[Ranald]

Those whining guys with their over-active "inner females" really get my goat. Sanctimonious John Kerry clones who think the world owes THEM.
Yes Ive seen several shooting spots trashed out in Colorado, and it is a good idea to haul out some stuff.. the glass is a real problem. We do need to clean up our act.. we ALSO need to be aware of the local anti-gunners and when possible, educate them.. and where not... stand against them whenever and where ever they try to stifle our rights.

 

[esldude]

Gunsnrovers,

You don't have to, I just think you are smart to do so. No one has unlimited time. Where I live, the impact of mtn bikers is pretty small. They seem to police up their stuff fairly well. The shooters at the public range don't.

Unless you or others stay there all the time or someone is put there to act as range officer I think you are just pissin' in the wind. Add that to the unsafe activity of some then you have a situation I for one prefer not to place myself in. And I tried explaining basic safety to those guys. As well as why it was to their advantage. To a man in three different cases, I was basically told "f*ck off". So if some are intent on being irresponsible and vehement about continuing to be ignorant of safety, I would remove myself from their vincinty given the chance. Those who think they can do otherwise with these people, who have the time to attempt a re-education may have at it. My experience of this type person is, unless you have some authority to say, "do it this way or you won't be allowed to do it at all" you aren't getting anywhere with them. What can you do with someone stupid enough they can't see anything wrong with shooting downrange while others are out there since they aren't aiming at those guys?

 

[cerberus]

Non shooters

Are always going to not like shooters. Anytime your near people who are not shooting and you are there is a good chance of hearing a lot of bad mouthing from them. I used to enjoy going down to a local river and shooting but with the many people now in the area it's just not worth all the problems. You never know when they just might jump up and get shot. Unless your lucky like some posters and live far from anyone I guess you just try to adjust meaning keep looking for a better spot to shoot.

 

[Justin]

Selvagee, by any chance were you shooting at Rampart Range?

 

[Gunsnrovers]

I know when I was in San Diego, we had an issue with folks who were non-shooters dumping trash in known shooting areas. It's easy to blame the shooters, but how many shooters drag out washer/dryers, refrigerators, etc.? Policing things up is a big issue for all outdoor recreation.

I also have experienced non-shooters purposefully putting themselves down range to create a problem. At a place that used to be open called Kitchen Creek in San Diego, we had a father who would show up mid-morning with his two daughters and take them into the range to
"pick flowers" even though more then a few folks had already set up and were shooting. Passive agressive actions are just as bad.

When we go to the desert to off road, we always go to shoot as well. When we've parked and have set backstop set up to shoot, invariably some idiot gets pissed because he wants to off road where we're shooting. Typically, the response is polite, but the meaning is "it's a big freaking desert, take your truck to another part of it."

Just because they don't shoot doesn't mean you can't.

 

[Selvagee]

Selvagee, by any chance were you shooting at Rampart Range?

No, this was off Mt Herman Rd up in Monument. The "range" area is a bit of a drive from my place, I've never checked it out: just started shooting this summer after a long hiatus.

 

[p35]

My local informal range is having problems b/c a bunch of whiners moved in near it and started complaining about the noise . The real problem arose, though, when one of them got some soil samples and had them tested to show a huge lead concentration, basically making the place look like a Superfund site. Cleaning up is one thing, but how do you avoid slinging lead around with a gun?

 

[wingman]

a bunch of whiners

I feel we have become a nation of whiners and with an ever growing population it will only get worse. As a pilot i have always been amazed
that people will buy homes near an airport and then complain about
planes flying overhead.

 

[Sunray]

Not that it'd be a good idea, but I would have told him that when mountain bikers put as much money into conservation as shooters and hunters do he could have an opinion. I might also have pointed out the lasting damage mountain bikes do to the bush and enlightened him about how he doesn't need any permits or licences or anything else to ride his bike. He can enjoy his recreation without anyone flapping their gums about things they clearly know nothing.
Up here, in Ontario, hunters and anglers must pay a $50 tax for what's known as the Outdoors Card, in addition to the regular licence fees. No other users of the outdoors is required to pay it. Anglers and hunters are paying for twits on skis, running shoes and mountain bikes to have a place to play.

 

[UnknownSailor]

All of the places my family went to shoot as a kid are now closed, due to the trash issue. All of them used to be "firearm discharge" areas in various So. Cal National Forests.

All of them had mounds of discarded ammo boxes, old kitchen appliances, and expended brass was everywhere. None of them are open anymore, except for one, which went to a kind of controlled format, with range safety officers, and marked and designated firing lines. Layton Creek, IIRC. Off I-15.

I still say, when it comes to this issue, "We have met our enemy, and that enemy is us."

 

[snug]

Sounds like a real idiot to me! Good thing for him it was a level headed
gun owner.......I'M not much for aruging with an unknown "ARMED"
person......... It very well could have been some dummy who did'nt
give a hoot and dusted a few rounds claiming that he felt threatened
as this guy rode off.....the bike guy was lucky!!!

 

[YammyMonkey]

Mtn. bikers actually have gotten a simlar bad rap as shooters in regards to the land use issue. As someone who does both I can see both sides and have had to deal with both sides as well. I've seen people shooting over trails where you the view was blocked so if you were riding through there was a decent chance of getting shot. I've been harassed for riding a mtn. bike on trails that people who were hiking or riding horses felt were "theirs." I've cleaned up trash left by both bikers and shooters over the years as well.

The rider overreacted, but unfortunately it's not surprising considering the overreaction that other trail users have had toward riders. If it's legal to shoot there, do so, but when you do it'd be a good idea to take a trash bag with you and pick up some of the crap left by other people who couldn't care less. If anyone gives you a hard time point to your bag of crap, the trail, the backstop and let them know you want them to have a nice day.

 

[jefnvk]

My local informal range is having problems b/c a bunch of whiners moved in near it and started complaining about the noise . The real problem arose, though, when one of them got some soil samples and had them tested to show a huge lead concentration, basically making the place look like a Superfund site. Cleaning up is one thing, but how do you avoid slinging lead around with a gun?

If you think that's bad, some genius decided to build an upscale subdivision right downrange of a local formal gun club. The club has been there since 1926, IIRC. Anyway, the residents are now complaning about the noise, and the possibility of getting shot. Luckily, I live in an area where the gov't so far has told them they should have used better judgement in building their house

 

[usp_fan]

Another take on this...

Mountain Bikers have seen a huge drop in the access they can get to prime riding area. This has been led by various environmental groups--sierra club, etc... Most of the access they still enjoy is due to local groups doing lots of clean up and trail maintainence (large PR points).

If we rallied nearly as many resources to clean up our public shooting areas as some of these local riding groups, we'd likely not have as many issues in public range closures.

No I'm not green in my thinking. I do understand which way the wind blows. If we're seen as giving back, we've got a better chance of getting.


usp_fan--life long shooter and Mountain biker since '89

 

[Don Gwinn]

My gun club is west of Springfield, IL in a small township called Bradfordton. It's been there since 1946 and it's not an informal range; it has a huge berm, elevated shooting positions so you can't help but shoot down into the berm unless you're trying to shoot into the air.

A couple of years ago, before I joined, a local idiot who made a lot of money at real estate development in Springfield built his new house downrange. Now, keep in mind, the club had been there 50-some years at that point, and I know very well he couldn't have stood on his new property without hearing the gunfire.

He chose to build his house on the top of the tallest hill on the property. . . . . perfectly in line with the shooting positions. You can SEE HIS HOUSE over the top of the berm if the trees are bare and you stand where people used to shoot--but when the club leadership realized this, they voluntarily had the berm raised and reshaped and the present elevated positions built in such a way that now you'd have to stand at the 25-yard position and shoot across at the 200-yard targets to be in any danger of hitting near the man's house. That cost a fortune, but they could see the writing on the wall, and they did it before anyone complained.

Nevertheless, the rich idiot has spent the last couple of years harassing the club and trying to get them shut down. :banghead:

Frankly, I don't think it has anything to do with safety concerns; he just has to have it his way or extract a pound of flesh.

 

[mpw]

I shoot at Left Hand Canyon @ once a week...

 

[FullClip]

Haven't seen too many mountain bikers up my way yet, but the slobs who use the gravel pits as dumps have caused several good shooting ranges near me to be shut down. The dumpers may not even have been shooters, but we all get tarred with the same brush. Same thing goes for 4-wheelers. The responsable pay for the sins of the idiots. Has got to the point where I'm thinking about picking up a chunk of land out in the boonies just for my own use as "civilization" creeps ever closer to my house.

 

[HankB]

Many years ago. I was shooting with a couple of buddies on one guy's grandfather's place - perfectly legal, I might add. Surrounded by national forest, mountain bikers had "discovered" it and one day, two of them heard the shooting, and came by to berate us.

And wouldn't leave when asked politely.

So we put away the .22s and dug out our rifles, including a .300 Mag and a .375 H&H.

They were standing pretty close to us, continuing to mouth off, when we started shooting.

We had hearing protection.

They didn't.

Pretty soon we had the place to ourselves again.

 

[Lennyjoe]

The desert here around Arizona is littered with trash.

Not only from shooters, but others that cant take their trash to the dump.

I prefer a backstop of some type when shooting out in the desert.

We use a place called "the pit" which has a backstop. We plan on going out and cleaning it up next month. Even though alot of other shooters use it and dont clean, we felt compelled to do our part.

See our thread in the Rally point.

When seeing the title of this mountain bike thread I thought it was of an Airman here who shot a guy while mountain biking in New Mexico last week. He was confronted on the trail by a man with a gun. He pulled his own CCW out of his fanny pack and killed the bad guy. No charges, due to it being ruled as self defense.

 

[MrMurphy]

Hey Don, have the range,which has been there 50+ years start harassing the county to have the guy's house removed as a visual eyesore and a blight on the land. Tell them he has loud parties with music blasting and the shooters can't hear their own gunshots. It's a public safety issue you know...... hearing loss is a bad thing from loud music.


Harassment works both ways.

 

[GSB]

What kind of developmentally challenged fool goes and harangues some unknown guy shooting out in the woods? For all he knew, he could have been pissing off some drug dealer.

 

[MBane666]

Selvagee;

That's a toughie...I live up in Nederland (the last ungentrified mountain town in Colorado) and shoot on forest land because there are no public ranges in Boulder County or surrounding environs and the Boulder Rifle Club has a 27-year waiting list to get in.

The area I shoot on has obvioulsy been a range forever; it's also a staging area when needed for fire control , so it's hardly what one might call pristine wilderness. Still, there are some trails behind the range area, and I occasionally get some mountain biker from Denver (the locals know better!) who'll give you a hard time.


My policy has been to :

1) First, make sure I was in the right. I talked to the rangers and the local cops before I started shooting, so I knew I was on solid ground.

2) Explain the concept of "mixed use" to the moutain bikers involved. I'm a mountain biker myself, and I don't want to dis' anyone for no reason. Plus, as has been said here, the bikers have been on the bleeding edge of access issues.

3) Offer to tell the bikers where the "real" trails are...out here in the boonies, the trailhead signs are placed well up the trails, not visible from the roads and not necessarily marked on many biking trail maps. You have to know someone local or a biker who has ridden the trails.

4) Offer to instruct the biker on shooting...show them safety, what drills I'm doing, etc.

5) Give them a time frame on when I'm going to be finished and tell them which of the local coffeeshops has the best muffins.

Does this always work? Nope. I've had my ears ripped off by as***les in spandex...usually, they whip out their cellphones--which don't work up here--to try and call the rangers and/or the cops. I encourage them to ride into town and tell the chief of police that I'm shooting up here.

I would like to mention (hesitantly, to be sure) a final point:

6) When target shooting in the backcountry, *always* have a *hot* gun on your person! Usually, this is not the gun you're practicing with. Unless I'm doing USPSA/IDPA draw drills, I might not even have a holster on. And let's not even talk about practicing cowboy! I usually stick a J-frame in my back pocket. I don't much like surprises, especially when I've got hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars of guns around. By having a second gun on my person, I have the option of clearing the gun I'm practicing with, then setting it on the table, gunbag, whatever, which tends to lower the volume a bit...and still be comfortably armed.

mb

PS: Buy my book, TRAIL SAFE, for more backcountry tips! And watch my show! How's that for blatant commercialism??

 

[Treylis]

The desert here around Arizona is littered with trash.

Boy, you can say that again. Although the main reason why I just go to a shooting range now instead of wandering off to the desert is because of the idiotic kids on quads that do their best to get shot by other people, even when they're using a backstop. They just blow right past me on the dirt roads, too, since they can see I'm a shooter and not one of them... I get sprayed with dirt and dust. You'd think they'd be more polite when it comes to heavily-armed people, but, yeah, most of them are kids.

Out in Prescott it's a lot less crowded and much better, I need to go up to my dad's cabin again sometime and bring all the heavy hardware.

 

[bailer]

Without seeing the exact layout of shooting area to trail it's hard to form an opinion.

I had an issue a few months ago while dirtbiking in a popular ohv area. I crested a hill on a well used trail only to have a teenager shooting his 870 over my left shoulder. His dad was handthrowing clays directly toward the ridge that the trail runs over. I calmly explained that their shooting area was illegal as well as unsafe. Punk kid was less than impressed, father apologized for close call.

While I am generally very supportive of informal desert shooting, there are several issues in this case

*It was closed to shooting by the Forest Service as a "Congested Area"
*They were shooting directly at a trail that riders quickly come over blind.
*They were scattering clays(which decompose very slowly in the desert) over Virgin country.

Flame away, but we as shooters need to be mindful of other users when selecting an informal shooting area. Morons like these shooting right into a trail are the reason that so much desert north of Phoenix is now closed to shooting.

If your Colorodo situation was completely safe, than I apologize for the comparison.