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Confused

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Gunner45, Jan 29, 2003.

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  1. Gunner45

    Gunner45 Member

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    I am allmost ready to start reloading. I got a Dillon Square Deal B press for christmas, and I have been getting the extra stuff the forum members have sugested. Like calipers, scale, manuals etc.

    I ordered some 185gr. TCJ bullets from Rainier, got some Win231, and a box of CCI 300 primers. I have 200 once fired PMC .45 brass.

    Now the confusion sets in. I went to Raniers web site to look up starting loads for thier 185gr Total Copper Jacket bullets. The data page says the load are from Midway.

    Starting load listed for 185gr FP
    Powder Grains Vel. P.S.I.
    Winchester 231 7.5 1025 19,500

    Lymans #47 lists start load for a 185gr. jacketed hollow point that has similar bullet shape to the 185gr TCJ flat point.

    Powder Grains Vel. Psi

    Winchester 231 4.4 640 7,500

    Seems a like a big differance in starting loads. What am I missing here?

    Lymans lists the Max load as

    Powder Grains Vel Psi

    Winchester 231 6.1 937 15,700

    witch is lower than the start load on the Rainier/Midway site.


    Can the differance between a 185gr TCJ and a 185 JHP bullet be that great?

    Any way I am not going to start loading till I can get this figured out.

    Gunner45
     
  2. JohnK

    JohnK Member

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    Hodgdon has the following as a max load for 185gr jacketed and HP38 (same stuff as Win231)
    5.9 gr 906 fps 15,800 CUP COL: 1.195"

    I'd start around 5.3 gr and work from there.

    You'll always find some variation between manuals, but that one from Midway looks like a typo and should be a max load at 19,500 fps. According to SAAMI the max pressure for the 45 ACP is 21,000 PSI.
     
  3. Gunner45

    Gunner45 Member

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    Thanks JohnK

    Being new to reloading I wasn't sure, but it did seem a little high. I think I will start out with the Lyman start load and then I will try the 5.3 load you sugested.

    Thanks again.

    Gunner45
     
  4. Mal H

    Mal H Administrator

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    Glad you asked, Gunner. Don't make the mistake many new reloaders make in thinking that because a bullet has the same weight or shape that it is ok to substitute load data. The Rainier bullets are copper plated and will be loaded very similar to lead bullets of the same weight, but not exactly. The bullet from Lyman's manual is copper jacketed and will have different load characteristics from the plated bullet. A better bullet to compare the Rainier to in the Lyman manual is the 185 gr. lead (#452389). In general, a lead or plated bullet will take more powder than a jacketed bullet to reach a given pressure which is why there is a difference in the data you quoted. So you can see that if you make the mistake of using load data for lead bullets with a jacketed bullet, you might have an unexpected result and, at the extreme, a rapid disassembly of your pistol.

    Now, looking in the Midway LoadMap, there is no listing for Rainier bullets, but they do have a Speer 185 gr. plated SWC. Loads for 231 begin at 5.9 gr. (826 fps, 14200 psi) and stop at 7.5 gr. (1048, 20600). If the Rainier data is as consistently incorrect as what you stated, I wouldn't use it at all. As John points out, what they list as a start load is more like a stop load.

    The Lyman data is very conservative for .45 ACP in a modern pistol.
     
  5. JohnK

    JohnK Member

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    Glad to help out Gunner45, as Mal said its good you asked. MUCH better to ask when you're unsure than charge in, especially with a hobby as potentially dangerous as handloading.

    I'd also agree that the Lyman data is a bit on the conservative side, their cast bullet handbook also seems to be in the low range especially compared to Speer who seems to trend in the other direction.
     
  6. Paul "Fitz" Jones

    Paul "Fitz" Jones Moderator - Emeritus

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    Competitive shooting components

    Gunner WW231 powder is a very good choice as it meters accurately and is economical. The best primers if you wish to win anything in target or bullseye competition are Federal and Winchester and stay away from CCI, Remington or nickel plated brass unless it is Federal.

    Tips from an old timer
     
  7. dodge

    dodge Member

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    Why do you suggest staying away from CCI primers? That is all I use and never had any problems with them and in my rifles I've shot some very impressive groups. In my pistols they slao group very well but the nut behind the gun is not always that good.
     
  8. Paul "Fitz" Jones

    Paul "Fitz" Jones Moderator - Emeritus

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    Primers response

    In pistol calibers nothing compares with the reliability of F4ederal and Winchester. Remington has had some good comments. In progressive reloaders the primer slides have certain precise dimensions. When CCI was first manufactured in the 1970s their out of roundness, variable height cups, Paper slivers in the paper boxes and cocked anvils caused jams in the reloaders and explosions blinding and causing injuries to men operating their progressive reloaders. Also there is a term called "Cracking the Cake" of primer compound that with a high anvil in the primer pocket the first hit of the firing pin cracked the cake of coumpound not igniting it and settling the primer deeper in the pocket and then would not fire on the second hit. This was unreliability especially in a timed or rapid fire match.

    Products can improve over time but to me once burned is the last time burned and since Federal and Winchester has always been the best I have recommended them to my thousands of customers exclusively.

    Remington primers were reliable in very cold winter states for when a rifle was carried in and out of a hot cabin to a very cold outside and they were the most reliable under those circumstances.

    So often men buy the cheapest tools and cheapest components then complain about the results. To them I always say,
    "You Get What You Pay For"

    That is history. Other wise Remington brass is the thinnest made and can cause loose bullets in progressive presses whose expanders are set for thicker Federal or Winchester brass. The thinnest brass made is Remington nickle plated and I had to use an undersize expander in my press to make the bullets hold solidly in 45acp and got rid of the nickle plated ammo at gun shows.

    What I say here is well known to Old Timers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2003
  9. WESHOOT2

    WESHOOT2 Member

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    KINDA AGREE A LITTLE

    Kinda somewhat.

    I use the four brands of primers, and I have my own experiences with cases.

    But I gotta agree with one thing: CCI primers can be interesting.
    I still use them in many applications, and I make 9x19, 9x21, 38 Super, 38 Special, 357 Mag, 40 S&W, 10mm, 400 Cor-Bon (still havent found those ejected cases :eek: ) 41 AE, 41 Mag, 44 Special, 44 Mag, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt only.
     
  10. db4

    db4 Member

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    Gunner45- I load a lot of 45ACP on a Dillon SDB and would caution you about CCI primers: they are much harder to seat than Winchester or Federal, leading to high primers and other problems. I once broke the handle off my first SDB, and the first question from Dillon was "CCI primers?"

    Besides, Winchester boxes save all that shaking of the primer flipper.;)
     
  11. Gunner45

    Gunner45 Member

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    Thanks for the heads up. I will get some Federal or Winchester primers. What should I do with the CCIs that I have?

    Gunner45
    .........................................................
    Use them for plinking but be careful in using force in a progressive press with them. Possibly they have gotten their act together better since the incidents I spoke of but since Federal and Winchester are the best why use anything else especially in competition?

    You get what you pay for.

    John Paul
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2003
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