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Considerations of sub/urban backpack-carry weapons

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by ClicheBro, Nov 15, 2022.

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  1. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    If you are in one of the lawless areas of our country, I would take into consideration they probably just released someone who would steal a back pack from another individual walking down the street, just to see what’s inside…
     
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  2. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    The experimental group should use live ammo and the control group - placebo dummy rounds?

    Sorry, couldn't resist. We did a minisurvey as a class research design project after the Chipolte twins surfaced. The scenario was that you were in a coffee shop, a long arm carrying guy comes in and unslings his weapon - at that movement you shoot him. Would you convict the shooter? The idea was to get data for stat analysis practice for class. But interestingly most responders were OK with shooting the guy.

    I got a PM from a cop years ago who said he was outside on a perimeter during a rampage and a guy starts running towards the mall with drawn gun. Some of his fellow officers were about to shoot him. He yelled - NO. It was dad or husband with a loved one inside.
     
  3. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Coming at this with a open mind, if only for the sake of argument and setting the legal implications/risks aside.

    If (<- rather large) I was going to carry a firearm more capable than a handgun concealed in my backpack (my current pack has a pocket specific for carrying a concealed weapon, my IFAK rides there) I would want a firearm and pack that would allow very fast access to the weapon and then getting the pack out of the way again. You have two choices here, dump the pack to the ground, or get the pack behind you again. I would think retaining the pack would be the preference for a civilian away from home as there would be other valuable items in the pack you would not want to be without/lose. This means straps and buckles that you can get into and out of fast without snagging other gear and clothing. Accessing a backpack gun is never going to be as fast as an on-body handgun.

    Weight, you got to carry it, make it as light as possible. As others have already stated you are not going to want to be far from the pack as control of the weapon within is your responsibility so you're going to be wearing it a lot. You want the whole package light and you want a very comfortable pack (picking a pack is like picking socks or underwear, highly subjective to personal comfort and tastes). You also want a pack that allows you to conceal the gun while still being able to use the pack for other functions. If you open the main compartment to dig out your laptop or a snack and everyone on the bus can see the grip and folded stock of a carbine you have sort of failed.

    The less you need to do to the gun to get it into fighting configuration the better. A gun that needs to be assembled is pointless for the OP situation. Folding or collapsing stocks are about as much as I would want to mess with while deploying the weapon. This also mean it's loaded, or at least carried with magazine inserted and an open bolt.

    Selecting the cartridge is important. I think something like 300 BO (supersonic) is probably one of the better choices given a backpack rifle is going to have a relatively short barrel and 300 BO works fairly well in a short barrel. Although a PPC that takes the same magazine as you handgun of choice is a good option too. There is a whole nasty can of worms here alone, I am not going to delve.

    The problem for me is motivation. I cannot think of anywhere in the US were I would feel the need for said weapon. I also would not be comfortable carrying a SBR/AR-pistol type weapon in a backpack in a suburban/urban setting. I am fairly comfortable with a conceal handgun in a larger variety of situations and I am extremely comfortable carrying a pack pretty much any and everywhere. There have been times in my life (especially in grad school) where I lived out of a day pack and on a mountain bike in a fairly large city. The idea of adding a SBR/AR-pistol type weapon to what I was already carrying would have been onerous to say the least.

    If I actually felt like I need a backpack gun, I would not go, or I would be opening carrying something ready, and body armor, and as many similar equipped friends as I could find, and maybe some armored support, and air cover while we are wishing...

    -rambling
     
  4. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    I'm sorry but given the paucity of background information submitted by the OP, it's difficult for me to give any consideration to his question. And no, I'm not mocking him, as a mod suggested in the other thread.

    In order to even seriously entertain discussing this idea with the OP, once again, he should express why he would want to carry such a weapon in an urban/suburban environment. Even putting aside the question of need. because if there were any urban/suburban areas where any of us average citizens needed to carry a weapon in this manner, we'd already know, right?

    Given that this member has offered up exactly zero information on his background, level of training (may not be important to some of you, but if one is going to go forth armed in this manner, one better have some significant training), or (importantly) location -- which certainly has a bearing on this topic, as cities/regions throughout the country differ widely with regard to firearms laws, permissive/non-permissive areas and the general culture/acceptance of firearms.

    As others have noted, a citizen in civilian clothes -- with no law enforcement markings on body armor or a jacket and no visible badge --pulling a weapon out of a backpack in almost any possible scenario in which gunshots are heard --- will certainly be taken down by the first responding law enforcement personnel on scene.

    I personally see no possible good outcomes for the average citizen engaging in this type of firearms carry. It's already dicey enough out there for law-abiding citizens who defend themselves with concealed handguns. Unless we're talking a Red Dawn, Invasion USA or Walking Dead situation...

    For me, if I'm going anywhere other than the range with a long gun (even a breakdown carbine or SBR), I'm wearing a ballistic helmet and glasses, body armor and Level IV plates with, as mcb says
     
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  5. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Old Dog, you have summarized it all very well.

    For those who may be less knowledgeable of the laws and practicalities concerning the lawful use of deadly force by civilians, it may worth putting it this way:

    Questioning the need is not the same as saying "hey, there is little or no reason to believe that there are no serious potential threats out there". Rather, it is that (1) realistically, there is no way for a civilian to deploy the weapon in a lawful manner timely enough to use it effectively in self defense (think Tueller timing), and (2) a civilian trying to use one in an active shooter situation would be likely to become the victim of first responders or other armed citizens.

    Many of us understand these things, but for newbies imagining shooting confrontations in their minds, these aspects may not be obvious.
     
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  6. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    I guess it's not an either/or situation but if a person was contemplating a long gun or PDW-type gun for a backpack, maybe an armor panel would be more practical. No rummaging around the bag for extricate & assemble the gun, just swing the pack in front of your body.
     
  7. mcb

    mcb Member

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    This I have serious considered. Several armor manufactures make panels specifically for putting in daypacks and similar. I have considered adding a IIIA soft panel to mine to give it a bit more body/rigidity making heavier loads more comfortable and for the obvious ballistic protection. That said it adds another ~1.5+ lbs to the weight of what you are already carrying in your pack.
     
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  8. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    I carry a concealed pistol when I ride my ATV in the area around my desert ranch. You never know who or what you might meet out on the trails.

    In addition to that handgun, on those rides I carry an SBR in 300 BLK in a daypack. Loaded with 125 grain expanding supersonic ammo. The SBR is a much better tool than the handgun for a 75-yard shot on a porcupine (porcupines devastate orchards and vineyards like mine) or other critters. It deploys quickly enough, and has plenty of reach and power for that mission.

    The SBR generally stays home when I go to town. Conditions in the urban/suburban areas I most often hang in don't support taking it.

    However, I would never, ever impose my conclusion on another person. Not without first "walking a mile in their shoes".
     
  9. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    What do you think that Stephen Willeford would say about these conclusions?
     
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  10. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That doesn't matter to me, nor would it mean much to most knowledgeable people considering choice of weapon or carry method.

    Surely a rifle in hand is superior in facing a threat more than a few yards away outdoors.

    Not yet in hand? Try it FoF.
     
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  11. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    I've seen panels that are rigid, presumably some kind of glass and/or kevlar board. They maybe work as a frame sheet if the panel fit the bag serendipitously well. Many bags have a zippered laptop compartment, usually against the wearers back. My only question would be what threat level would be worth the effort. The Level IIIa panels are cheaper, thinner and lighter but you'd have to ask yourself if the most likely threat is a shotgun or handgun or if you'd be better off with rifle protection. Level IV is probably gonna be five pounds at least.
     
  12. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Moot point. Willeford's impressive actions notwithstanding, his incident is not even close to being comparable to walking about in an urban or suburban are on one's daily business with his PDW in a backpack. Willeford lived very close to the church, in a small rural community where literally, everyone knew everyone. Willeford went back into to his house to retrieve his rifle.
     
  13. mcb

    mcb Member

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    The rigidity would be nice but the weight would not. For me personally I think IIIa protection would be sufficient for the most likely of my hopefully high unlikely armed conflicts. My pack actually has a semi-concealed flat pocket that resides between the laptop pocket and my back and goes the full width and height of the pack. It is lined with velcro for easy configuration and is accessed from either sides rather than the top making it easy to get into while still having one strap on your shoulder. That would be a nice place for an armor panel too.
     
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  14. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    If Willeford had pulled his AR out of a backpack in the midst of an active killing situation, he probably wouldn't be able to say anything right now, particularly if he was amongst people who didn't know him.
     
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  15. Blue Jays

    Blue Jays Member

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    My sense is there is a ongoing belief that in the fog of a crazy mass shooting…some rando is going to pull a SBR out of nowhere…and arriving officers will be like Sergeant Martin Riggs and Sergeant Roger Murtaugh…who will then give a knowing nod to the fellow good guy and there will be an impromptu battlefield partnership.

    Good and honest people need to get that fantasy out of their heads pronto.

    My gosh, if one has pulled their firearm they need to get it holstered, covered, and with hands in PLAIN view as uniformed police arrive. The last thing one wants is to be furtively crouched behind a wall holding a rifle! If in midst of the fight even expect a bit of rough handling while things get sorted. I would think long and hard about a backpack SBR because getting it put away and clearly "non-hostile" would be quite a task during a bad time.
     
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  16. Frulk

    Frulk Member

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    Is this a separate thread or follow on to the one about schlepping around a short barreled AR to an urban gym?
     
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  17. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    To a modern reader the crazy thing is that's exactly what happened in the Texas book depository mass shooting back in '66! Still one of the worst mass shootings in US history, and solved by some guys with hunting rifles that helped the cops to nail the guy. Of course this was before the current militarization of the police really hit full stride so the help of private citizens was crucial.
     
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  18. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    I like the idea, as a concept for maybe a get home bag, but as a general rule it's just too much to worry about having a long gun you have to keep track of all day, every day, and you'll never get it into use in time unless you are on the perimeter of an event when it goes down.
     
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  19. mcb

    mcb Member

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    And if you're on the perimeter of such an event retreat is do much safer and easier. As a civilian you would have to have an extremely compelling reason to engage.
     
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  20. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Not really. It was plainly obvious that there was a single perp and no more, and his location was known. There was no reasonable way for anyone to confuse citizens shooing at him with participants in the crime.
     
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  21. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Students, faculty and residents retrieved hunting weapons (not being carried on themselves) and fired at the sniper in the tower. They pinned him down so no one else was shot. The building still has marks on it from the rounds. People in the lower floors had to take cover from rounds that were too low and came through their windows. Shooting a a far distance at an upward angle is not that easy. Two officers and book store manager got up to the top of the tower and killed the sniper. They were still under fire from below. They thought about throwing his body over the side to stop the fusillade. Didn't though.

    A pistol caliber carbine would not have been an optimal gun.

    Some people did not take cover or flee. Many did and some risked their lives to get folks to safety. One guy with his girl friend, told her to come look through the posts of a stone fence. She refused. He did it and was shot through the mouth at a far distance. The shooter was skilled.

    Causality :
    1. Had a brain tumor in an area that controls aggression.
    2. Horrible abusive father, wanted revenge on him
    3. Training to be a killer in the Marine.

    All three interact most likely.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2022
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  22. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    I was almost trapped by a pack of thugs in south central Los Angeles that had momentarily disabled my bike with a thrown object through the rear wheel.
    They were yelling (almost chanting), "C'mere, white boy!"
    I didn't fumble around for some weapon or other out of my backpack.
    I just got that chunk of steel out of my wheel and boogied, popped spokes and all.
    -That's probably why I'm still around... .
     
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  23. Scrapiron45

    Scrapiron45 Member

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    One day I was talking to the floor guy on our crew and he mentioned that he carried a glock with a couple mags in his tool bag. Told me he was working at VA Tech when the shooting occurred, spent the morning barricaded in a room with two others armed with a floor scraper and a propane torch. He also said if he could find a way to stuff an AR in his bag he would.
     
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  24. Obturation

    Obturation Member

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    I do some backpack carry, but why?
    Easy answer is, for work. It's basically impossible for me to have a holstered pistol on my body while at work , not that it's prohibited but it would be inappropriate and in the way- auto mechanic, no belt, lots of different positions and rolling around. I've tried but there is just no way. My solution is to keep a pistol in a Velcro pouch on the front of a small pack I bring with me everyday that I also keep things I may need- light,knife,water,,lighter, ect.
    So if it's not on your belt I think put whatever you like best and shoot best. I work in Cook County (just outside Chicago ) it's not a nice area so I pack a bit heavy - glock 20 with 3 spare mags, no problem at all in a pack but tough to do on person. In cold weather I'll keep a 380 in a jacket pocket too.

    When I'm not at work I always carry on person and obviously I'm aware of the substantial advantage to that. Not everyone can carry on person all the time, that's life. Good luck
     
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  25. jstert

    jstert Member

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    i can understand carrying a lawful ccw in a slingbag or fanny pack as both are relatively accessible, but not in a backpack, and not any long gun in a suburban or urban setting.
     
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