Quantcast
  1. Upgrade efforts paused for now. Thanks for your patience. More details in the thread in Tech Support for those who are interested.
    Dismiss Notice

Constitutional Crisis?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by D.B. Cooper, Oct 19, 2022.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    Messages:
    3,720
    Are we headed toward some sort of Constitutional crisis over states and localities resisting the Bruen decision? I was helping a middle school kid in my family with a worksheet on checks and balances recently, and, as I talked through it, I realized these gun control governments are deliberately violating the Bruen ruling and there seems to be no readily available remedy to this.

    President Andrew Jackson refused to comply with a Supreme Court decision regarding native lands in Georgia, saying something to the effect of they've made their decision, let's see them enforce it. Are we on a similar path now?

    To what extent, and in what ways, can the judicial branch enforce their rulings-especially absent support from the other two branches? Especially in the face of entrenched opposition to their rulings.
     
    DustyGmt, SharpDog, czhen and 5 others like this.
  2. gunmechanic

    gunmechanic Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2021
    Messages:
    141
    Location:
    up state ny
    In newyork state where i live (up state farm country) the bruen decision only ticked off the governor and she doubled down on all things anti 2A.now we cant get pistol permits or semi auto long guns and shot guns due to her hatred of the 2A.it all being tied up in the courts, i hope things go in favor of the 2A and our rights but i think it will get worse .There is no enforcement for these tyrants now in our country!
     
    stillquietvoice and ms6852 like this.
  3. shafter

    shafter Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,602
    I think you make a good point. Laws are only meaningful to the point that they are enforced or not enforced.
     
    czhen, danmc, theotherwaldo and 3 others like this.
  4. nick22

    nick22 Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Ohio
    That's pretty disturbing, but New York has voted such anti freedom politicians into office. This is a great example of why a little common sense gun control is not what they're after and the masks are coming off. I would love to see the governor recalled in that state of heaven forbid someone on the other side of the gun control spectrum take over that state,
     
    ms6852, theotherwaldo and DoubleMag like this.
  5. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,338
    Location:
    south Florida
    The cure for this sort of problem is actually built into our form of government... and November is coming.. Seriously, folks generally get the government they ask for and that's why places like New York are what they are. I won't go any further - but simply get out and vote the so and so's out of office if they're not doing what they should. Me, I figure that the next election might actually be a good start...
     
  6. DTL

    DTL Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2021
    Messages:
    534
    New Jersey under the present Governor and Democratic legislature has surpassed California as the worst state for gun owners. Murphy is intent on totally ignoring SCOUS on gun issues, having his Senate & House lackeys pushing the most extreme restrictions and outrageous fees. The only word for this regime is oppression. Our heavily Democratic urban districts who suffer the most from gang violence are solidly in their pockets come election time, believing the lie that more laws will protect them from the criminals with the guns in their neighborhood.
     
  7. Robert

    Robert Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    13,914
    Location:
    Texan by birth, in Colorado cause I hate humidity
    This is one of those topics where politics and the Second Amendment are closely entwined. But please, keep the political comments focused on the topic at hand and how it impacts our rights. Far ranging, broad reaching umbrella statements about politics in general will only get this shut down, and this is an important topic for us.
     
  8. sota

    sota Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2012
    Messages:
    951
    Actual enforcement is what causes the subjects to comply.
    Power flows from the gun, or the noose; hangin' of traitors needs to come back.
     
  9. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    29,983
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    The founders framed our government so "We the People" decide and self govern.

    Having fought off the tyranny of British monarchy rule that made American colonists second class subjects with no representation in England, founders framed our government as a constitutional representative republic so majority mob rule of larger city states could not be imposed on the minority rights of smaller rural states, as outlined in the Bill of Rights that were added to the Constitution. That's why the founders rejectected the Popular Vote and representation in Congress solely by population numbers and instead chose the Electoral College with equal representation in the Senate, regardless of population numbers.

    So when state law makers and governors passed unconstitutional laws violating the Bill of Rights, "We the People" sued the states so the judicial branch could check their powers and this is what justice Gorsuch said about the role of the judicial branch, separation of powers and "We the People" self governing - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...r-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-9#post-12421616

    "Our Bill of Rights is excellent ... Judges are the backstop to ensure rights and liberties, that is our job ... My business is your rights, ALL OF THEM, are enforced

    The original Constitution now includes 27 amendments passed by the 'We the People' ... 'We the People' amended the Constitution, ... to fix the injustices... improved the Constitution, made it a better document. And that is the proper process to do that

    I am an originalist ... We have a written constitution that our founder wrote down ... They made a charter among 'We the People' ... This is what we agreed to as to what the government's powers are and what they are not ... What our rights are. Originalists ... honor what's written there. Honor those words ... Don't make stuff up and don't take things away.

    Well, I think one thing [James Madison] might tell us is to pay attention to the separation of powers ... the truth is that our rights, including the separation of powers, are only as good as the people who want to keep them there.

    'We the People' can do this ... We can govern ourselves.
    "
    And in 2016, "We the People" elected a president using the Electoral College and using equal representation in the Senate (To represent rights/interests of smaller rural states), sent additional "Originalist" justices to the Supreme Court to check and balance the government powers (Violated by state law makers and governors) to protect the minority rights of gun owners. And in 2022, the Supreme Court ruled for "We the People", and justice Thomas stated the Second Amendment is not a "second class" right for Bruen ruling.

    So how will the Supreme Court ruling be enforced when executive and legislative branches won't?

    "We the People" will decide.

    Keep in mind that while the House wrote many bills that represent the majority mob rule of the larger coastal city states, the Senate representing the minority rights/interests of smaller rural states vetoed these bills.

    In 2022 and 2024, "We the People" will choose the legislative and executive branch make up and if we get representation that reflect the sentiment of "We the People", then make up of the House will write bills to enforce the Supreme Court rulings approved by the Senate for the president to sign them into law.

    That's how "We the People" will decide and self govern.

    And this is what district judge Benitez wrote about state government imposing on the rights of minority gun owners in his Duncan v Bonta ruling - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...r-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-9#post-12421711

    "This case is about a muscular constitutional right and whether a state can impinge and imprison its citizens for exercising that right. This case is about whether a state objective is possibly important enough to justify the impingement"
    And in his Miller v Bonta ruling - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-10#post-12437128

    "In the end, the Bill of Rights is not a list of suggestions or guidelines for social balancing. The Bill of Rights prevents the tyranny of the majority from taking away the rights of a minority.

    When a state nibbles on Constitutional rights, who protects the minorities? The federal courts
    ... The Second Amendment is about America’s freedom: the freedom to protect oneself, family, home, and homeland ... California’s assault weapon ban disrespects that freedom.

    ... Government is not free to impose its own new policy choices on American citizens where Constitutional rights are concerned ... The Second Amendment stands as a shield from government imposition of that policy."​
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2022
    Frulk, gudaki, Suicide*Ride and 11 others like this.
  10. kidneyboy

    kidneyboy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,801
    Location:
    SE WI
    The judicial branch only makes the rulings. It is up to We The People to enforce them. The voting booth would be the traditional approach but history tells us that is not always the most effective solution.
     
    stillquietvoice and kcofohio like this.
  11. Stevel

    Stevel Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Messages:
    425
    Location:
    SE PA
    "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

    John Adams
     
  12. BLACKHAWKNJ

    BLACKHAWKNJ Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2007
    Messages:
    835
    After Brown vs. Board of Education numerous Southern governors, politicians, etc. vowed "massive resistance"-cf. George Wallace "standing in the door".
    In 1959 Virginia repealed its school attendance law, Prince Edward County closed its public schools, set up "private" ones for white children, none for black children. There was the crisis at Central High School in Little Rock in 1957.
    Matyas Rakosi, the Communist boss of Hungary, boasted of his "salami slicing" tactics-just a little bit at a time. We'll see the same thing here. Background checks that take forever-"don't have the manpower"-allowing unverified complaints from ex-spouses and significant others to block a permit, massive insurance requirements. Caliber limitations ?
     
    dogtown tom likes this.
  13. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    29,983
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    John Adams doesn't speak for "We the People" of 2022. Our elected representatives and the Supreme Court do ... And Electoral College and equal representation in the Senate allow the minority of smaller rural states to have equal voice with the majority of larger coastal city states in Congress to decide/approve what bills get passed and signed into law.

    And your reply does not answer the OP.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2022
  14. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    29,983
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    I guess "We the People" will find out after 2022/2024 elections.
     
    Tinman357 likes this.
  15. Pat Riot

    Pat Riot Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2015
    Messages:
    5,684
    Location:
    West Virginia
    Having spent many years in California I know vey well how the Constitution and laws can be manipulated and skewed to meet the needs of those in power with the support of the media marching lockstep with those in control. For years I have said that Californians have “Stockholm Syndrome”. It is almost as if they don’t care or realize what government is doing, especially in regards to the 2nd Amendment.
    The voting booth will not change things in this regard. Many states like New Jersey, New York, Maryland, Connecticut, Illinois, etc. take pages from the California playbook and do as they please. When the courts and even SCOTUS renders a verdict these states immediately go to work to thwart the findings via loopholes, legal machinations and even outright disregard for the rulings.
    Voting is not enough. Something is going to have to be done and I believe it will not happen any time soon.
     
  16. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    29,983
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    So can you answer the OP's question?
     
  17. redcon1

    redcon1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2008
    Messages:
    983
    Location:
    Northern Ohio
    I think the state level battles will be ongoing for years but the Bruen decision puts us in a more defensible position or, for that matter, it gives us a stronger offensive capability when we attack their state level positions. Where it will be most useful (I think and sincerely hope) is at the federal level. It will be harder for the federal government to diminish certain aspects of the 2A at the federal level because of this decision. Specifically, I think it makes them a little more hesitant to bring a federal ban on semi-automatic rifles before the court because it appears that it would be overturned and that would be a major setback for "them". They will need to wait until the court is either packed or otherwise transformed into something more conducive to a victory for their side.
     
  18. Night Rider

    Night Rider Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2022
    Messages:
    765
    The following is strictly my opinion.

    1. The current administration has absolutely no interest in enforcing Bruen. So they won't.

    2. If we had an Administration that was interested in enforcing Bruen, they would simply do what they did when they wanted the drinking age raised to 21. They'd cut off all Federal Highway funding to the state until the state did it.
     
  19. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    29,983
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    Court packing goes both ways. "We the People" already did that in 2016-2020 and current Supreme Court make up won't likely change significantly for quite a while.

    And "We the People" get to do more "court packing" after 2022/2024 elections and if more "Originalist" justices are appointed to the Supreme Court, the antis will be waiting for GENERATIONS. :) < But the Supreme Court would have made many more rulings and if "We the People" elected executive/legislative representatives to enforce those rulings ... So sad for antis ;) >

    It sure did by eliminating the "two step" approach and now the courts must use "text and history" approach only, which is a game changer.

    And things sure have changed in 2022 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-10#post-12427677

    AP News: “After Supreme Court ruling, it’s open season on US gun laws” - https://apnews.com/article/gun-viol...ngs-politics-f919b74dc95062f322389349f35c0e93
    • The Supreme Court changed a test lower courts had used for evaluating challenges to gun laws (Eliminated the two-step approach) and now only weigh whether the law is “consistent with the Second Amendment’s text and historical understanding.”
    • The Supreme Court ruling "threatens" gun control laws across the country on everything from bans on AR-15-style guns to age limits
    • The Supreme Court ruling already led US District Court judge Raymond Moore (Obama nomination) to temporarily block a Colorado town from enforcing a ban on the sale and possession of certain semi-automatic weapons. He said he didn’t know of “historical precedent” for a law banning “a type of weapon that is commonly used by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes,” so while still early in the process, was a rosy sign for gun rights groups.

      Encouraged by that decision, Taylor D. Rhodes, the executive director of the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, told The AP that his group was considering going after other gun measures in Colorado ... “The Bruen decision gave us a 4-ton wrecking ball.”
    • The Supreme Court ruling could dramatically reshape gun laws in the US
    • “The gun rights movement has been given a weapon of mass destruction, and it will annihilate approximately 75% of the gun laws eventually" - Evan Nappen, a New Jersey gun rights attorney
    • The Supreme Court decision directly impacted concealed carry gun laws in several other states (CA, HI, MD, MA, NJ and RI) and they have been remanded back to lower courts for reconsideration in light of Bruen ruling
    • In MA, police chiefs can no longer deny or impose restrictions on licenses just because the applicant doesn’t have a “good reason” to carry a gun.
    • NY quickly passed a new concealed-weapon law, but Republicans there predict it will also end up being overturned.
    • “Supreme Court has given an invitation for the gun lobby to file lawsuits against virtually every gun law in America" - Jonathan Lowy, chief counsel and vice president at Brady, the gun control group
    • The Supreme Court has ordered lower courts to take another look at several other cases under the court’s new test (CA and NJ laws that limit magazine capacity and 2013 MD ban on “assault weapons”)
    • Gun rights groups are also challenging similar bans in California, New York, New Jersey and Delaware.
    • The Supreme Court ruling challenges restrictions on gun possession for aged 18-20 in TX/PA and challenges federal ban on gun possession for people convicted of nonviolent crimes as well as prohibition on concealed guns on subways in DC.
    • Colorado was sued over 2013 ban on magazines that hold more than 15 rounds
    • The Supreme Court ruling has public defenders in NY City asking judges to drop gun possession cases
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2022
    IlikeSA and theotherwaldo like this.
  20. redcon1

    redcon1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2008
    Messages:
    983
    Location:
    Northern Ohio
    And, using Bruen, we'll want to chalk up as many legal victories as we can going forward so as to construct a web of legal precedents that will be increasingly difficult to get ant-2A legislation through and all the while understanding that what we're really doing is preventing the federal government from banning semi-automatic firearms for the next generation of patriots which I personally see as one of the primary tasks that this generation of patriots must accomplish and Bruen puts us in an excellent position to accomplish that task.
     
    theotherwaldo likes this.
  21. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Random Guy

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    4,525
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie (Ala)
    Depends on what exactly is a “constitutional crisis”?

    I tend to be of the opinion that we’ve been in “second amendment crisis” since at least 1934 and a constitutional crises since at least March 4, 1913… buts that’s a different issue.
     
    doubleh, theotherwaldo and usaral63 like this.
  22. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    29,983
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    While they will surely try, they won't pass constitutional muster - https://slate.com/news-and-politics...ed-carry-limits-citing-the-supreme-court.html
    • Supreme Court radically refashioned the Second Amendment
    • Blue states ... scrambled to enact new gun safety laws to deal with the decision. Those measures are already falling like dominoes
    • courts ... may only uphold gun laws that are grounded in “this Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation.” ... revolutionary
    • U.S. District Judge Glenn Suddaby put on hold significant portions of a recently enacted NY law ... requirements for applicants ... 18-hour training course, names of references, an in-person interview, a list of social media accounts, and proof of good moral character
    • If the government can’t produce at least three analogous gun laws from before Teddy Roosevelt’s presidency, then it can’t regulate today
    • Unless the Supreme Court changes course, we’ll only see more ... decisions ... that tie the hands of ... legislatures
     
    theotherwaldo and redcon1 like this.
  23. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    9,431
    Location:
    Virginia
    A "constitutional crisis" is something that cannot be resolved by normal, institutional means. NY's efforts to sidestep the Bruen decision haven't reached that point yet.
     
    luzyfuerza, danmc and DeepSouth like this.
  24. Pat Riot

    Pat Riot Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2015
    Messages:
    5,684
    Location:
    West Virginia
    No, can you with any certainty?
     
    Bang! likes this.
  25. TomJ

    TomJ Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2014
    Messages:
    2,761
    Location:
    Illinois/SE Wisconsin
    You can add Illinois into the mix. They short staff the department that's responsible for issuing FOIDS and CC permits leading to significant delays in processing them. Additionally the list of prohibited places where you can carry is significantly higher than Wisconsin, where I now live. I'm not aware of a single gun shop or range in Chicago as the city does what they can to keep them out. The list goes on. They can't do away with the 2A so they do whatever they can to make gun ownership difficult.

    The issue is that the politicians doing these things have no accountability. They constantly come up with workarounds when the courts rule against them, leading to another legal challenge. Maybe holding these politicians in contempt of court when they ignore rulings would help, if that's possible.
     
    theotherwaldo likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice