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Controversy in the Texas Senate with Student CHL

Discussion in 'Legal' started by chuck_in_texas, Feb 20, 2009.

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  1. chuck_in_texas

    chuck_in_texas Member

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    This will, I'm sure, cause some heat from both sides.

    the Texas State Senate, as at least us Texans are aware, is considering a bill to allow students with CHLs to carry on campus.

    Some responses to this have been positive, and some may believe that it may prevent tragedies like the one at Virginia Tech.

    I'm a retired guy who teaches part-time at two local colleges. And, by the way, am a legal CHL holder and carrier. But I don't, following the law, carry into a campus facility.

    Now, as someone who stands up in the front of the room of 25 to 50 students, the thought of any one of them having a .45 in his backpack makes me uneasy. And I sure has hell don't want that the be the arena for a gunfight.

    If you've spent a lot of time around college-age students, you must know that the VAST MAJORITY are young people trying to better themselves, but there are always a few who are under under the influence of various kinds of exotic chemicals. On more than one occasion, I've had to contact security to get an EMT in because a student was losing consciousness or unable to speak clearly.

    It would be nice if everyone of us who had a CHL was rational, clear-thinking, and had it only in interests of self-protection. But we sure can't count on that. And the fact that faculty would be allowed the same privilege--that doesn't make me feel any better. A room full of people is not a good place to start a gunfight. and think about this: if such an altercation started, would you want 20+ innocent bystanders in between you and your adversary?

    Many people seem to take the postition that had students or faculty been armed at Virginia Tech, perhaps the shooter could have been taken out sooner. Maybe. But how many more possible shooters could be sitting in how many more classrooms?

    There's probably no right answer to this. But think about one thing: IF one of the legally carrying students decided to have a "bad day", and there were other legally carrying students who decided to stop him or her---is there any kind of happy result? Anyone who has served in the military must know about the old term: "crossfire".

    Just something to think about.
     
  2. Rio Laxas

    Rio Laxas Member

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    My wife teaches part time at an urban university in Texas. Recently a guy at a bus stop was shot and killed sitting there across the street from the campus. I knew three people personally that were robbed a gun point in and around campus when I was a student there. I also remember one incident where two men tried to rob a student with a butcher knife. He beat them both up and took the knife away, so that ended well for him. Right before I left there was a female student sexually assaulted in an empty class room. They never caught the guy. I'd sure feel a lot more comfortable if my wife was allowed to carry.

    I really don't think allowing campus carry would result in any more violent incidents than already occur. The vast majority of people that pursue a CHL are not the type that are going to suddenly go nuts and start shooting up a room full of people. For that matter, school shootings that make the headlines are very rare, and it is far more appropriate to consider the above described incidents when considering this legislation.

    Additionally, I don't think the passage of this kind of legislation is going to cause a bunch of students and teachers to run out and get a CHL.

    Why should we have to check our rights at the door?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2009
  3. GonHuntin

    GonHuntin Member

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    Chuck

    I respect your opinion, but I strongly disagree........

    You seem to be suggesting that a person, old enough to apply for and receive a license, is responsible enough to possess a firearm off campus, but isn't responsible enough to carry it on campus??? So, it's alright to carry in a crowded mall, but not in a classroom??? What changes to cause that person to be responsible enough to carry one place and not in another???
     
  4. Deer Hunter

    Deer Hunter Member

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    Racist Elitism.

    Why?

    Let's think saturday night specials...

    They got a bad rap back in the day. Cheap handguns are nothing new. Public favor was against them. Jim Crow laws didn't even allow Blacks to own guns.

    Because you see, you just can't trust a negro with a gun. Right?

    I mean, you, the law-abidin' white male teacher-folk can carry a gun because we trust you. But not those blacks. Nope.

    It's a bit of a stretch, yet It is essentially the same argument.

    Well, Some college students drink and party, and if this bill passes Some students will be carrying a concealed gun in class. Therefore, it seems logical (to some, at least) that the irresponsible students will be the ones carrying guns.

    So irresponsible people = CHL holders.

    Great picture you're painting for the rest of us, my friend.

    As a college student myself, I am completely behind CCW in the classroom by anyone with a CHL.

    There are plenty of fairly good arguments against CCW in classrooms. Yours, however, is not one of them.
     
  5. chuck_in_texas

    chuck_in_texas Member

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    almostfree:

    when it comes to the campus environment and neighborhood, I'll AGREE with you. 100%. Our campus provides escort service for any female student who wants it.

    I taught in another TX town a few years back and many a night on my way to my car at 10:00pm I got some uneasy feelings because the campus neighborhood wasn't exactly an ivy-leauge town. It was one of the things that made me go legal and get my own CHL. Even today, I occasionally do "on-site" teaching for businesses that want their employees trained. they're not in the best neighborhoods, and I damnded straight DO have something on my hip when I go down there.

    It's the CLASSROOM that bothers me. Female students, and male students, have EVERY RIGHT to protect themselves on campus and to and from wherever they go. And they should. So do faculty.

    I just don't cotton to the idea of armed students in a confined classroom.

    Sure the law would make it easier for me---I could just start toting my own CW, and I'd feel more comfortable. Right now I can't do that, because I don't want to lock it up in my car. It's just the classroom, my friend. that's the scary part. By the way, if students had to identify to faculty that they were carrying, I'd probably be a happier camper.
     
  6. chuck_in_texas

    chuck_in_texas Member

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    gonhuntin:

    many years ago, in another country, I learned something in Corps. Being part of a patrol is sometimes bad, sometimes not so bad. But when it's your turn to walk point, it's always bad, because you're always the number one target.

    My point was, and I guess I didn't nmake it clear, is that the guy or gal in the front of the classroom is always walking point
     
  7. GonHuntin

    GonHuntin Member

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    Chuck

    Again......what is the difference between sitting next to an armed student in a restaurant or a movie theater....or in the classroom???

    By the way, I'm not a student......but I have one son in college and another that will start in the fall......

    I do respect your opinion, but I think you are off base..........
     
  8. chuck_in_texas

    chuck_in_texas Member

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    deer hunter:

    I sure don't recall mentioning race at all----mine or that of my students, and it's irrelevant. But you implied racism.

    Perhaps now you can see, as a student yourself, why I get uneasy.

    We started out talking about one topic: whether or not it was good to have students carry. And you jumped my case about racisim. Which was the furthest thing from my mind.

    So my point is: something I wrote pissed you off. Just as some things I say in class often piss off--I'm sure--my students. I just want to make sure the dis-agreements don't turn into the OK Corral.
     
  9. chuck_in_texas

    chuck_in_texas Member

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    gon huntin:

    I reckon I'd better quit while I'm ahead. (If I was ever ahead)

    I tried to make the point with deer hunter that teachers often have disagreements with their students. (Maybe it's just me, maybe other teachers are always nice.) that happens, and sometimes it gets heated.

    I was trying-----and I guess I missed the target way too much-----that teachers are potentially the number one target

    I hope to hell I'm wrong, and I guess I'll say no more about it
     
  10. Mr. James

    Mr. James Member

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    chuck in texas,

    Oh, I get it, if we allow hot-headed students to carry in a classroom, "there'll be blood in the streets - er, the corridors. Disputes over that last vacant seat will escalate into gunfights. Students will shoot their instructors" That hoary old nugget gets resurrected every time someone suggests taking liberty seriously. Most recently, the antis have recycled it in demanding the Obama administration rescind the properly enacted regulations concerning concealed carry in national parks. What rot.

    And did you really miss deer hunter's point that badly, or are you being coy?

    As you may suspect, I reject your premise entirely. It is the thinking of an anti. Who will decide which adults (we are talking about folks over 21 years of age here) are and are not worthy of carrying a concealed handgun?

    This liberty stuff is risky business. Sometimes it even requires us to gulp once or twice and be . . . well, uncomfortable. Considering what price "comfort," I can live with that. So should you.
     
  11. tulsamal

    tulsamal Member

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    I taught at OU in Norman and RSC in Claremore. I strongly support these types of changes to the CCW laws. Unfortunately, Oklahoma already considered it and shot it down....

    Anyway, one thing always seems to be overlooked by detractors of these changes. We used to tell incoming freshmen at OU that one third of them would be gone by the end of the year. Grades, partying, whatever. Far fewer sophomores would drop out. Etc. CCW laws affect those old enough to own and carry a handgun. That's 21. If you are 21 and want to go through all the bureaucracy to get your CCW, more power to you! I'm not going to worry about the 19 year old frat boys that fail out after two semesters!

    Gregg
     
  12. Dravur

    Dravur Member

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    Actually...

    Some have said they respect your ideas.... Sorry. It is an elitist position and deserves no respect whatsoever.

    You don't want armed students in your classroom because it makes you feel uneasy.....Tough.

    but, you don't mind them sitting next to you in the movie theater, or on the subway, or any place else.... Just not where you are the focus of attention. Awww, cuz you are more important than them somehow?

    If they can pass the Background check and have shown themselves to be mature enough to carry, then more power to them and less to you.

    If you are uneasy with Concealed Carry Permit holders in your class, then I suggest you teach at a prison, or in a nice, safe country like Mexico where you can know that no one there has a CCW permit.

    Otherwise, it is time to jump off the high horse, realize that you feeling uneasy does not trump the right of OTHERs to protect themselves and mosey off into the sunset.
     
  13. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    Spare me your FEELINGS

    I couldn't disagree more.

    Feelings vs. logic. The thought of someone like the VT shooter in your classroom should certainly make you feel uneasy, but another student, or yourself armed and able to repel the attack should certainly make you feel better.

    Seems like criminals bent on a massacre would disagree with you. They'd greatly prefer a room full of people, helplessly unarmed and ready for execution.

    Maybe is always better than what took place. Making that option nonexistent assures that the story will end badly every single time, without fail.

    We could wring our hands with 'what-ifs' until we stay locked in our homes, shivering in the fetal-position. Eventually you've got to resist the feelings that impair good judgment.

    I completely disagree. There seems to be a clear and logical answer to this.

    Nothing like that would end 'happy'. It could definitely end better than how it currently ends. WHEN illegally carrying students decide to have a "bad day", there is only one way that it ever ends... innocent people die without ever having a chance to fend off the attack. Gun free killing zones need only one thing... armed citizens.

    IMHO, your feelings are clouding the issue. Logic illustrates that there is only one answer, and that is to add the only variable that could ever prevent, fend off, or equalize the situation.

    I apologize for the criticisms, but I think our nation's school campuses have experienced enough massacres to prove that the gun-free idea is an absolute failure.
     
  14. GonHuntin

    GonHuntin Member

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    Dravur

    Point of fact, I said I respected his opinion, not his ideas.......he has a right to his opinion, and I respect that right........if you read my posts, you would find it difficult to see any support for his position.......
     
  15. Fburgtx

    Fburgtx Member

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    Chuck,
    This is the same kind of thinking we get from people who want to ban CCW altogether. They said the streets would turn into the "OK Corral". Why are you afraid of 21 year-old students who want to get a permit to LEGALLY carry a gun????
    I'd be much more afraid of the students who have no intention of carrying a gun legally (illegal carry). I don't know what kind of people you hang around with or what you have read, but folks with a CHL are LESS likely to engage in the kind of behavior you describe.
    I'm not for sure where you teach, but it must be a pretty rough place. In all the time I spent getting my bachelor's and advanced degree, I NEVER saw an extremely heated argument, much less any physical altercations in the classroom. What are you teaching that is so controversial that you expect gunfights to break out??? Do you think that 21 year-old college students are so immature that they are going to whip a gun out at the drop of a hat????
     
  16. Prince Yamato

    Prince Yamato Member

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    Drunk and hopped up students... what a load of crap. Most students who are inebriated don't come to class. Most students who are high during the day, fail out of school. Most (if not, nearly all) of those students you are talking about don't have CHLs and probably can't even get a gun legally.

    I've taught in a college setting too (as a TA and an instructor). Crossfire? Please. If you don't have a clear shot, you don't take it. Period. No crossfire. That's CCW 101.

    Next, some of us don't teach in huge classrooms. If you teach one-on-one, like a classical voice, piano, or instrumental teacher, you get a nice small studio; one that's too small and confined for pepper spray to be effective.

    Why do people always assume that we're only talking about class time? What about the walk to and from classes? What about extracurricular activities like student government, salsa dancing, anime club, Queer Studies, the Vietnamese Student's Association, or whatever else college students participate in, that meet after 7pm? How about commuters that park in the parking garage or in a far off lot and return to their cars after dark?

    If you shoot someone during a heated discussion, there is something psychologically wrong with you. Someone who is apt to shoot their professor over an ideological difference is probably someone who won't respect the current laws with regard to campus carry anyway.

    And speaking of current laws... I can drive up and down the roads on your campus all day, with a loaded gun on me, I can walk up and down the sidewalks too. The only thing preventing me from carrying in school buildings is an unjust Texas law, supported by people like you. :fire:
     
  17. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    Post #13 pretty much knocked this one out of the park.








    :p
     
  18. Seminole

    Seminole Member

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    As someone who teaches full-time at a college, allow me to disagree.

    As in every other social situation, it is the responsible, law-abiding individuals who have CCWs. There is nothing to fear from them carrying anywhere.

    The irresponsible, immature individuals who are disinclined to follow the law will will carry without CCWs if they desire, even if the law is not changed.

    Therefore, the only difference resulting from the change in the law is that responsible, law-abiding adults whom you have no logical reason to fear will be able to carry in the classroom.

    Logic is fun! ;)
     
  19. Rmeju

    Rmeju Member

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    Chuck, think about it this way:

    If you think that someone is dumb enough to do anything with their hidden handgun other than keep it hidden until their life is in danger, what in the world would make you think that they're going to wait for a little plastic card with their picture on it for permission to take that gun into the classroom at all?

    As much as you seem to be a polite, clear thinking guy, you're essentially using the argument that banks use to post "No-Carry" signs on their doors. Is that sign gonna stop a robber? Or is it only going to make law abiding citizens not carry guns in?

    When you think about it, the argument is terribly weak.

    Rmeju
     
  20. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    What we really need is a complete change of our culture.

    College should not be a place where legal adults go to prolong their adolescence as long as possible.

    BUT, by and large, IT IS THAT (with the exception of GI Bill students and a few "OTA" students of course).

    So I can see both sides here.

    My proposal has little to do, directly, with concealed firearms. I think it's probably the foundation necessary.

    Age of criminal responsibility: 15. Death penalty, life in prison without parole, EVERYTHING.

    Age of consent: 15. Sorry but you don't get to use my tax dollars to put your slut daughters' boyfriends in jail.

    Drinking age: 15. European kids grow up with beer, and they have fewer binge-drinking problems BY FAR.

    Last year you're a tax write-off for your parents: 18.

    Then you can issue CHLs to college students on campus.

    As it stands now, many people, and by far most college students, don't learn adult responsibility until they're in their 20s.

    It's just a fact. We create it. Many of the pioneers who populated the American West were far younger than the students who get arrested for having a beer these days.

    Until we solve this problem, there is no good answer IMHO.
     
  21. daniel1113

    daniel1113 Member

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    Well, I think everyone up to this point pretty much destroyed your argument, chuck. I can only hope that you take a minute and think about what's been written and why your argument is weak.

    I'd also like to take a moment to say that gun owners and CHL holders like chuck are the type of gun owners that I dislike the most, even more so than hardcore anti-gun crowd. You claim to be in favor of gun rights, but in reality, you only support the ones that make you feel comfortable and that meet your needs. It's no different than being in support of free speech, as long as the speaker agrees with your point of view. At the end of the day, you do far more harm to gun rights than the anti-gun crowd ever could.

    But then again, I'm just a stupid 24 year-old looking to attend law school in Texas. I certainly can't be trusted.
     
  22. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    The argument is weak, extremely.

    These students, if they can qualify for the CHL, will be carrying everywhere else anyway, the classroom is just one more place.

    The idea that somehow they might snap in class but not anywhere else is ridiculous.

    Sorry, this argument doesn't pass the smell test.

    Is that really the only argument against this you can come up with?
     
  23. DHJenkins

    DHJenkins Member

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    You voice your concerns as if none of your students aren't already packing.

    At least now you might actually know which ones they are.
     
  24. Deer Hunter

    Deer Hunter Member

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    So you see one word and base the entire counter-argument with that?

    And you're teaching at a university?

    Your feelings have no right in this argument. Leave them by the wayside and you will see that the argument is extremely weak.
     
  25. Wolfebyte

    Wolfebyte Member

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    Didn't we have this argument back in the early 90's when Granny Annie didn't want to pass the CHL because there would be blood in the streets with everyone carrying?

    I'd be worried about the "kids" carrying without a permit..
     
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