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Conversion cylinders for 1858Rem?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Texas Moon, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. Texas Moon

    Texas Moon Member

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    Anyone here use a conversion cylinder in your 1858 Remington?
    Curious about them.
    Opinions?
    Any brand to avoid?
     
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  2. Bullseye
    • Contributing Member

    Bullseye Member

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    READ this thread - I just went through this LINK
     
  3. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    TM, if you are comfortable taking your Remie apart (everyone should be, it is necessary for thorough cleaning), you can easily radius the forward edge of the left bolt arm if an " un-locking" situation occurs with any drop cyl conv. cyl you get. This is a fairly common problem with the drop cylinders.
    I personally like my 6 shooter to remain a 6 shooter so, I would get an older Howell/ R&D or a Taylor's 6 shot cyl. The Remie is the perfect platform for drop cylinders.

    Mike
     
  4. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    I discussed this "unlocked" problem a little in the other thread. It seems to me that this would apply more to a 5-shot cylinder than a 6-shot, because the root cause is that the hand (as installed by the factory) is a bit short to rotate the cylinder the required distance. (Obviously a 5-shot cylinder has a greater distance between chambers than a 6-shot.) If you cock the pistol slowly, the bolt comes a hair short of clicking into place. But if you cock it quickly, the rotational momentum of the cylinder carries it the required distance. (I discovered this through trial and error.)

    To permanently solve the problem, I was thinking along the lines of installing a slightly longer hand. But it seems that your suggestion of radiusing the left edge of the bolt would work as well, and be easier to accomplish. I may give this a try.

    I still prefer the Howell 5-shot cylinder to the 6-shot, because of the extra strength and because of the safety notches, which allow it to be carried with all 5 chambers loaded. A 6-shot is not really a 6-shot, if you have to carry it with an empty chamber.
     
  5. noelf2

    noelf2 Member

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    There are two problems I've had with conversion cylinders. One with a Howell's 5 shot, and one an R&D 6 shot. The 5 shot would not rotate fully into battery when cocking. That was fixed with a new hand. I lucked out and the new hand was perfect length, without stoning, to fix the problem. If it wasn't long enough, I would have peened the new hand to stretch it a bit so it would work. The problem I had with the 6 shot R&D was what 45 Dragoon mentioned. The bolt leg needed some relief because of the shallower bolt stop notches in the cylinder. These are two separate issues. Relieving the bolt leg will not fix an insufficient hand length (hand doesn't push the cylinder far enough for full lockup), and a longer hand will not fix a shallow bolt notch (normal cylinder lockup on full cock, but drops out of battery on trigger pull) problem.
     
  6. Bullseye
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    Bullseye Member

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    He ( Texas Moon ) doesn't have the problem I had. He didn't get a cylinder yet I don't think anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  7. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    OK, I misunderstood 45 Dragoon's problem. My 5-shot cylinder doesn't jump out of lockup. Still, I wonder if beveling the left edge of the bolt would help it drop into the notch. This would be a lot easier than finding and installing a longer hand. BTW, where did you get your longer hand?
     
  8. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    Alex, I said the bolt arm, not the bolt itself. Beveling the bolt on any verticle surface is a no-no!!
    The only way to fix an " out of battery" problem is to stretch the hand or fit a new one. This is another reason for the six shot cyl. The 6 shot cyl is plenty strong enough for "normal" loads. Being able to swap cap cyls with conversions is much easier without swapping hands too. Also, putting a "safety notch" in the 6 shot cyl isn't hard to do (you only need one ). I like (and still) load 6 in a 6 shooter, 5 in a 5 shooter.

    Mike
     
  9. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    OK, thanks.
     
  10. webrx

    webrx Member

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    maybe I just got lucky, but my conversion cylinder (6 shot) dropped right in and worked perfectly in both my 1858s. I did not have to do anything to make them work.
     
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  11. Oohrah!

    Oohrah! Member

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    Been reading these threads about CCs, and getting my first Taylors R&D 6-shot for my Pietta 1858 Rem in the mail today. We'll see.
     
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  12. Texas Moon

    Texas Moon Member

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    I haven't purchased a cylinder yet. Was researching and wanted to hear experiences.
    Probably going to get a Taylor. I want six rounds.
     
  13. Oohrah!

    Oohrah! Member

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    Well, I plugged my new Taylors CC 6-shot into my Pietta 1858 Rem. Slipped in nice and easy and works perfectly with no mods. The bullets sit nicely as well. Gonna shoot it Sunday and see how it checks out.
     
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  14. Crawdad1

    Crawdad1 Member

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    Never had a problem with Taylor's conversion cylinders. I've had five of them and they all worked perfectly from the get go.
    1) 51 Navy
    1) 49 Pocket
    2) 58 Remingtons
    1) 1860 Army

    If you guys want to see proof I have all the pictures of these revolvers. I never had a problem with Taylor's conversion cylinders.
     
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  15. Crawdad1

    Crawdad1 Member

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    That's great!!! Tells us how it shoots!!!
     
  16. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    For what it's worth, the Howell conversion cylinder (and probably all conversion cylinders) made for the Uberti Remmie will also fit and function perfectly in the Armi San Paolo (Euroarms) Remmie (long discontinued). This is good to know if you have one of these older repros.

    The Armi San Paolo, like the Uberti, is closer to the originals than the Pietta is. Differences between the Uberti and the Armi San Paolo can be summarized as follows:
    1. The Uberti is a little more robustly made, overall. This can be seen clearly in the front sight, for example. Both are dovetailed, but the Uberti front sight (base) is .27" in diameter, while the Armi San Paolo is .21". The top strap is clearly thicker on the Uberti.
    2. The Armi San Paolo frame is Beals type (it does not show the barrel threads), while the Uberti frame is scalloped to show the barrel threads. (This is more authentic for a New Model Army.)
    3. Markings -- The Armi San Paolo has the modern markings on the top and sides of the barrel, while the Uberti has them on the underside of the barrel, where they are hidden by the loading lever.

    All this being said, the Armi San Paolo is still a very well-made gun. If you could pick one up cheaply, it could be the host for a conversion cylinder.
     
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  17. Oohrah!

    Oohrah! Member

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    Range report. Put 50 rounds of Fiocchi 45LCCA 250 grs LRNFP (smokeless powder) through her this morning, knocking down steel pie plates. Very nice, not a hitch.

    I saved the brass and intend to reload with BP per Driftwood's method.
     
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  18. Crawdad1

    Crawdad1 Member

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    All right!! Now you can experiment a bit to get her even more dialed in. These conversion cylinders added another dimension to these revolvers.
     
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  19. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

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    That was not my experience. When I had a Taylor's R&D cylinder fitted to my old EuroArms Remmie (yes, it was made by Armi San Paolo in 1975), a bunch of years ago, the Gunsmith at Taylors told me he took a cylinder for a Pietta, not Uberti, and fit it to my old EuroArms Remmie.
     
  20. whughett

    whughett Member

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    Would suspect that any problems with cylinder fit would lie with the gun and not the cylinder manufacture. The fact that my R&D cylinder will swap between any one of my three ROA's, and they run from early to late manufacture. I guess my point is guns differ wildly in quality whilst R&D, Howell and Kirst are all top quality products.
     
  21. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    Manufacturers change their specs over time. I was going by my Euroarms Remmie that I bought new in 1989, and my Uberti Remmie that I bought new many years later. The Howell 5-shot conversion cylinder that I bought in August 2012 fits and functions equally well in both of them. The Pietta cylinder would not fit in either of them, since it is longer.

    Howell changed the design of the backplate on his conversion cylinder in 2012, shortly after I bought mine. The new backplates are stamped "U2" on the inside, as opposed to "U" on the original ones. This was in response to changes by Uberti in the base gun. Well, I recently bought a conversion cylinder with the new backplate design from Howell, and it won't time correctly in either my Euroarms or Uberti! (The cylinder jams completely in the Euroarms, and only moves half the required distance in the Uberti.) Howell is suggesting I file the tip of the hand to 1/2 its width to correct this problem. We shall see. (He is out of stock on the "U" type backplates, so I can't return it for an exchange.)

    Update: I did as suggested and filed a 45 degree bevel on the top outside edge of the hand (narrowing the tip width by half, to about 1/16"). This did the trick. It works perfectly, and times better than the old "U" style backplate (in the Uberti).
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  22. webrx

    webrx Member

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    oohrah, sounds like you got a winner, same as my experience with the taylor CC. trailboss powder makes for a nice 45 colt reload/shooting load if you do not want to use real BP/sub and worry about having to compress the powder. TB fills the casing pretty well and you should not/dont need to compress it for it to function well.
     
  23. Oohrah!

    Oohrah! Member

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    I will check it out. Does it smoke like BP? That's a pre-req.
     
  24. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

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    No, it does not.

    Trail Boss is not a Black Powder substitute, that is a common misconception. It does not create Smoke and should not be used like Black Powder. Mentioning Trail Boss on Black Powder web pages only adds to the confusion.

    Trail Boss is a modern Smokeless powder created by Hodgdon Powder a number of years ago for the very light loads often used in Cowboy Action Shooting, hence the name. Many CAS shooters download their cartridges considerably, often lower than suggested minimum loads, to achieve light recoil. Many CAS shooters also shoot large capacity cartridges such as 45 Colt. Light loads and 45 Colt do not go well together, the huge powder capacity of the case, coupled with light powder charges of more conventional powders often results in inefficient ignition of the powder and unreliable performance. Trailboss was formulated specifically to be very bulky, to fill up large capacity cartridges with light loads better and leave less air space in the case. The grains are very fluffy, looking like tiny donuts, that is why it bulks up so well.

    https://www.hodgdon.com/trail-boss/

    Trailboss is a Smokeless powder with a fast burn rate, nothing like Black Powder. It develops higher pressure than Black Powder and it must not be used as a Black Powder substitute, it was not meant for that. It works very well for what it was designed for, light charges in large capacity cases. And it does not create smoke, as Black Powder substitutes are designed to do.

    If you want Smoke, stick to real Black Powder such as Goex, Schuetzen, Swiss, Graf's, or any of the other brands of real Black Powder. If you don't want the hassle of cleaning up after Black Powder (which is no where near as bad as many think) stick with one of the BP Substitutes such as Pyrodex, Hodgdon Triple 7, or APP.

    P.S. Clean up with Real Black Powder is actually easier than clean up with Smokeless powders. It's just messier.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
  25. webrx

    webrx Member

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    Was not intending to imply TB was a BP or BP sub, and don't think I did, I specifically stated "if you do not want to use real BP/sub and worry about having to compress the powder".

    Sorry if I created any confusion, I realize this is a BP forum, I was simply passing on my experience with conversion cylinders and what I sometimes use in my plinking reloads for my conversion cylinders. I have found TB to be a "safe" to use (loads which are not going to blow up your gun) smokeless powder for reloads for this (BP revolvers with conversion cylinders) application but DJ is right, it does not smoke like BP and it is not a BP or BP sub..

    It is a smokeless powder, but one that can be reloaded in a large casing which gives a good visible indication of load so a double charge would be difficult to do without overflowing the casing and being obvious. FYI - TB should never be compressed.

    d
     

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