Convince me that a .380 is in the arena with a 38 spl
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R.W.Dale
Member
IME the cartridges are VERY similar.
Both in the platforms their popular for (mouse guns vs snubbys) are extremely velocity challenged in relation to bullet weight thanks to the low pressure ratings involved
This translates to dubious JHP expansion charistics that if do come into play severely limit penetration. I consider 38spl< as cast/FMJ cartridges ONLY. I've shot quite a few living creatures with JHP +p 380 and I can assure you it's effectiveness is severely limited as is JHP 38
Where. 38 holds an advantage is that it can shoot heavier NON expanding bullets that will get you the penetration and retain a modicum of tissue damaging ability through bullet shape
Also don't take published ballistics for a 38 as gospel when dealing with a 2" snub. VERY few loads will actually make a K from these guns when loaded to SAAMI pressures at ANY bullet weight.
My LCR is loaded with Winchester +p 158 SWC
My P32 71 g fiocchi FMJ
And the 386xl on my hip rem SJHP's 125g. 357mag
Both in the platforms their popular for (mouse guns vs snubbys) are extremely velocity challenged in relation to bullet weight thanks to the low pressure ratings involved
This translates to dubious JHP expansion charistics that if do come into play severely limit penetration. I consider 38spl< as cast/FMJ cartridges ONLY. I've shot quite a few living creatures with JHP +p 380 and I can assure you it's effectiveness is severely limited as is JHP 38
Where. 38 holds an advantage is that it can shoot heavier NON expanding bullets that will get you the penetration and retain a modicum of tissue damaging ability through bullet shape
Also don't take published ballistics for a 38 as gospel when dealing with a 2" snub. VERY few loads will actually make a K from these guns when loaded to SAAMI pressures at ANY bullet weight.
My LCR is loaded with Winchester +p 158 SWC
My P32 71 g fiocchi FMJ
And the 386xl on my hip rem SJHP's 125g. 357mag
LiveLife
Member
Why only 150 ft/lb of energy? Get some better 380Auto ammunition. Here's are two I like and use for 738 TCP.CDW4ME said:
Winchester 95 gr PDX1 JHP (latest Black Talon variant) - http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/Innovative/PDX1-Defender/Pages/S380PDB.aspx
Muzzle Velocity: 1000 fps
Energy: 211 ft/lb
Speer 90 gr Gold Dot JHP - http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23606
Muzzle velocity: 1040 fps
Energy: 216 ft/lb
I switched to 380acp
ALL,
I used to carry a j-frame size .38 Special and have gone to .380ACP. My reasoning was the same as the legendary gun writer, Skeeter SKELTON who was a big supporter of the WALTER PPK in .380ACP for concealed carry. He also boosted the COLT 1908 in .380ACP and the S&W j-frames in .38 Special.
My .380ACP of choice is the SIG 232 with the blued aluminum frame and night sights. The night sights alone could have sealed the deal, but they were an added bonus after I had decided on the SIG 232.
The SIG has a 3.6 inch barrel, so it will get very close or equal the published velocities of ammo. I have found that I can shoot it as well as a larger SIG 9m.m. pistol, with the same qualification scores as the 9m.m. Since, only hits counts and I cannot shoot anywhere near this well with a j-frame size .38 Special, that pretty much settled it.
The large grip area of the SIG, recoil absorbing action and milder recoil of the lighter .380ACP make it much more controllable for me.
There were other factors as well, my .38 Specials, two S&W's, a CHARTER ARMS and a COLT and TAURUS I used to have, were all good guns, but none shot as well as the SIG, not even close. The huge advantage between these rounds is in the platforms that they are carried in.
Sure, you could load +P or .38-44 type of load in a j-frame, but they would punish the shooter and wear on the gun. Also, I don't know about you, but to me, the .38 Special +P load using the 158 lead hollow points kicks hard. I would not want to use it in anything smaller than my L-frame S&W or mid size COLT Officer's Match, neither of these guns is very concealable.
The last carry load that I used in my j-frames was the FEDERAL Nyclad 125 grain hollow point. This bullet is so soft, you can deform it with your fingernail, so it will expand, even at low velocities. But using it, I am not getting much more power than I get using .380ACP hollow points in my SIG. My SIG holds 8 rounds versus 5 rounds for the j-frame and the SIG is faster to reload with 7 rounds versus a speed loader with 5 rounds.
The .380ACP is more controllable for me, faster to reload, carries more ammo and has night sights, it just made no sense to stick with the .38 Special, at least to me.
If I were considering a belt gun for outdoor use, then the .38 Special would make a great deal more sense. A 5 or 6 inch barreled, mid size .38 Special could do triple duty as a defense, hunting or plinker and I could actually get the advertised velocity and have a controllable gun.
Jim
ALL,
I used to carry a j-frame size .38 Special and have gone to .380ACP. My reasoning was the same as the legendary gun writer, Skeeter SKELTON who was a big supporter of the WALTER PPK in .380ACP for concealed carry. He also boosted the COLT 1908 in .380ACP and the S&W j-frames in .38 Special.
My .380ACP of choice is the SIG 232 with the blued aluminum frame and night sights. The night sights alone could have sealed the deal, but they were an added bonus after I had decided on the SIG 232.
The SIG has a 3.6 inch barrel, so it will get very close or equal the published velocities of ammo. I have found that I can shoot it as well as a larger SIG 9m.m. pistol, with the same qualification scores as the 9m.m. Since, only hits counts and I cannot shoot anywhere near this well with a j-frame size .38 Special, that pretty much settled it.
The large grip area of the SIG, recoil absorbing action and milder recoil of the lighter .380ACP make it much more controllable for me.
There were other factors as well, my .38 Specials, two S&W's, a CHARTER ARMS and a COLT and TAURUS I used to have, were all good guns, but none shot as well as the SIG, not even close. The huge advantage between these rounds is in the platforms that they are carried in.
Sure, you could load +P or .38-44 type of load in a j-frame, but they would punish the shooter and wear on the gun. Also, I don't know about you, but to me, the .38 Special +P load using the 158 lead hollow points kicks hard. I would not want to use it in anything smaller than my L-frame S&W or mid size COLT Officer's Match, neither of these guns is very concealable.
The last carry load that I used in my j-frames was the FEDERAL Nyclad 125 grain hollow point. This bullet is so soft, you can deform it with your fingernail, so it will expand, even at low velocities. But using it, I am not getting much more power than I get using .380ACP hollow points in my SIG. My SIG holds 8 rounds versus 5 rounds for the j-frame and the SIG is faster to reload with 7 rounds versus a speed loader with 5 rounds.
The .380ACP is more controllable for me, faster to reload, carries more ammo and has night sights, it just made no sense to stick with the .38 Special, at least to me.
If I were considering a belt gun for outdoor use, then the .38 Special would make a great deal more sense. A 5 or 6 inch barreled, mid size .38 Special could do triple duty as a defense, hunting or plinker and I could actually get the advertised velocity and have a controllable gun.
Jim
Clippers
Member
Vodoun da Vinci, that's great info.
Gun Master
Member
Like J Frame over most .380's
I'd rather have 5 more powerful and more reliable rounds, than a less powerful, less reliable 7 rounder. Oh, I disagree that the J frame is more recognizable, usually. Some .380's, like 3AT, etc., might be more easily hidden, but certainly not Colt 1908, Bersa, et al.
Unless one of those 7 jams during the process.
I'd rather have 5 more powerful and more reliable rounds, than a less powerful, less reliable 7 rounder. Oh, I disagree that the J frame is more recognizable, usually. Some .380's, like 3AT, etc., might be more easily hidden, but certainly not Colt 1908, Bersa, et al.
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Vodoun da Vinci
Member
I can hand load some pretty stiff .380 and .32 ACP and out of a 3.75" barrel they perform like the rounds you posted. But out of a Ruger LCP or similar you won't get that velocity or energy level. The barrels are too short.
I think the LCP has a 2.75" barrel which would mean you'd lose roughly 100 fps give or take. Not to nit pick....I'm not a fan of teeny tiny .380's any more than I am really a fan of snubbie .38's for smaller stature or less experienced shooters. I just got back from the range and shot 9mm (my personal protection favorite) and our Ruger LCR with 158 gr. 38 Special +P's.
I can control it well enough to get fast accurate hits at 21' but it was like getting punched in the face. Seriously I had to stop after 20 rounds and massage the feeling back into my right hand. It is a potent SD round no doubt but I can shoot our Glock 42 in .380 just as well and even better and practice for a full hour burning over 150 rounds and getting some very fine groups and muscle memory/quality training in.
VooDoo
Using basic OTC ammo I think the 38 is the more powerful round. In most common guns you get an extra 2 rounds in a pocket sized 380. Which is most important? I bet everyone on the forum will agree.
I can't get any of my .38 revolvers in my right front jeans pocket but I can get ALL my tiny 380's in there.
I guess the revolver is more reliable but I assure you the 380's I carry regularly are pretty darned close or I wouldn't carry them.
I can't get any of my .38 revolvers in my right front jeans pocket but I can get ALL my tiny 380's in there.
I guess the revolver is more reliable but I assure you the 380's I carry regularly are pretty darned close or I wouldn't carry them.
Gun Master
Member
Don't Hesitate, Use .38, If You Want to Stay Special
Surely when you referred to your ".38's", you weren't talking J frame 2" S&W. What sized .380, etc. ?
I regularly carry my 2" Model 38 (Airweight Bodyguard) in the right front pocket with an Uncle Mike's pocket holster (sometimes w/o holster). I even carried my Colt Police Positive 4" in my car coat pocket this weekend w/o notice. Also have a Chief Special 3'' Model 36 SB that I carry, middle-of-the-back with Uncle Mike's ITWH. None obviously noticeable IMO.
Extra Note : The Colt Police Positive has the same frame as the Colt Cobra, and is the closest Colt has gotten to the J frame, plus it has 6 rds., not 5 as in the J frame.
You weren't specific re: which .38's or .380's, brand & model, size, etc.Using basic OTC ammo I think the 38 is the more powerful round. In most common guns you get an extra 2 rounds in a pocket sized 380. Which is most important? I bet everyone on the forum will agree.
I can't get any of my .38 revolvers in my right front jeans pocket but I can get ALL my tiny 380's in there.
I guess the revolver is more reliable but I assure you the 380's I carry regularly are pretty darned close or I wouldn't carry them.
Surely when you referred to your ".38's", you weren't talking J frame 2" S&W.
What sized .380, etc. ?I regularly carry my 2" Model 38 (Airweight Bodyguard) in the right front pocket with an Uncle Mike's pocket holster (sometimes w/o holster). I even carried my Colt Police Positive 4" in my car coat pocket this weekend w/o notice. Also have a Chief Special 3'' Model 36 SB that I carry, middle-of-the-back with Uncle Mike's ITWH. None obviously noticeable IMO.
Extra Note : The Colt Police Positive has the same frame as the Colt Cobra, and is the closest Colt has gotten to the J frame, plus it has 6 rds., not 5 as in the J frame.
fastbolt
Member
As an owner of both, I only bought the .380 (LCP) because it let me pocket-holster carry it in some situations where I couldn't easily fit one of my 5-shot snubs into a pants/jeans pocket, or at all. The LCP lets me carry a retirement/LEOSA weapon when I don't feel like dressing around a larger gun, and the 5-shot snub isn't quite as easily pocketed.
I prefer the heavier bullet weight loads of the .38 Spl +P, but if the much lighter weight .380 loads are available in situations where I'd probably leave the .38 Spl at home? I'll carry the diminutive .380 and deal with it. (FWIW, it wasn't until I'd borrowed a LCP from a friend, and had been able to see how well a number of them were working, that I even considered going "below" my .38 Spl "minimum" again. The last .380 I'd owned/carried had been more than 25 years earlier.)
Now, trying to compare ballistics between the .380 ACP & .38 Spl is no doubt one of those caliber debates that makes for lots of discussion, magazine sales, etc, especially among internet gun forums. However ...
It really comes down to how well & effectively the individual user can use either that's going to probably be the critical deciding factor. After all, if you can't consistently controllably, accurately and effectively use it under stress, what good is it really going to do?
Both cartridges are reported as seeming to well 'enough' in the area of being used as backup/secondary weapons for LE users, and they're both enjoying another cycle of interest from that market. Both are often considered the 'minimum' caliber among a number of agencies authorizing (or issuing) small guns for use as secondary & off-duty weapons.
The gun companies and ammunition makers have been investing a lot of attention and production effort to filling the demand for both calibers, too.
During one of my recent armorer updates the observation was made by a company armorer instructor that the fastest & largest growing segment of the commercial handgun market in recent years has been that of the .380 pocket pistol. Go figure. Lots of folks simply aren't interested in getting something that won't slip into a small holster in either a pocket or purse.
In LE hands? It's seemingly neck & neck for both calibers. Both have been involved in reports of having saved the lives of cops, on & off-duty.
Now, I'm not in the business or habit of shilling either specific makes/models of guns or ammunition. I'm an instructor & armorer, not a salesman. I'm more interested in how well someone with whom I'm working on the range can safely handle & operate whatever handgun it is they're using (by restriction or choice), and especially how well they can controllably & accurately use it in whatever qual or training courses-of-fire are being used at the time.
At one time, when we were looking ahead to cover more off-duty/secondary ammo needs for an order, we stopped to take count of what was being carried in the way of .38 & .380 ammo, reviewing qual records. I was surprised (at that time) to see it was pretty much an even split between the calibers. I've noticed more of both since then, too.
So ... Which of those small "pocket gun" calibers that you're willing to lawfully carry concealed, under whatever anticipated conditions are going to be involved, can you use ... and do so under unexpected circumstances that will probably be chaotic, rapidly evolving, not to mention physically, emotionally & psychologically demanding? Might be in reduced/dim lighting, too, and might involve a situation where you may only be able to use 1 hand.
I don't consider either the .38 Spl +P or the .380, fired from sub-3" barrels, to be exactly "optimal" when it comes to power and potential ballistic performance. I don't try to convince myself that either is what I'd prefer to carry as a primary weapon if I were to again return to duty and working a plainclothes assignment. That's not why I own and use either of them, though.
For me, for .380 ammo, I've tried a few different major-maker JHP's and some FMJ practice loads. I carry one or another of the JHP's at the moment (either Win RA380T T-Series or Speer GDHP, depending what's available at the moment). ask me next year and the answer may, or may not, be the same ... but I'll still be making sure my skillset is such that I'm able to make effective use of the little .380 pistol, regardless of what's loaded in it.
For my .38 snubs? I have several choices of 125-130-135gr +P loads, a couple brands of 158gr LSWCHP/LHP +P and a 110gr standard pressure load (for an older 37), all of which shoot fine in my 7 snubs. I even have a couple Magnum loads I've found that work well in my pair of M&P 340's (without exhibiting bullet pull), but I commonly carry +P loads in those.
Now, if you want to talk about larger .380's that have 3.5"-4" barrels? I'll carry one of my 3"-3.5" 9mm's.
I prefer the heavier bullet weight loads of the .38 Spl +P, but if the much lighter weight .380 loads are available in situations where I'd probably leave the .38 Spl at home? I'll carry the diminutive .380 and deal with it. (FWIW, it wasn't until I'd borrowed a LCP from a friend, and had been able to see how well a number of them were working, that I even considered going "below" my .38 Spl "minimum" again. The last .380 I'd owned/carried had been more than 25 years earlier.)
Now, trying to compare ballistics between the .380 ACP & .38 Spl is no doubt one of those caliber debates that makes for lots of discussion, magazine sales, etc, especially among internet gun forums. However ...
It really comes down to how well & effectively the individual user can use either that's going to probably be the critical deciding factor. After all, if you can't consistently controllably, accurately and effectively use it under stress, what good is it really going to do?
Both cartridges are reported as seeming to well 'enough' in the area of being used as backup/secondary weapons for LE users, and they're both enjoying another cycle of interest from that market. Both are often considered the 'minimum' caliber among a number of agencies authorizing (or issuing) small guns for use as secondary & off-duty weapons.
The gun companies and ammunition makers have been investing a lot of attention and production effort to filling the demand for both calibers, too.
During one of my recent armorer updates the observation was made by a company armorer instructor that the fastest & largest growing segment of the commercial handgun market in recent years has been that of the .380 pocket pistol. Go figure. Lots of folks simply aren't interested in getting something that won't slip into a small holster in either a pocket or purse.
In LE hands? It's seemingly neck & neck for both calibers. Both have been involved in reports of having saved the lives of cops, on & off-duty.
Now, I'm not in the business or habit of shilling either specific makes/models of guns or ammunition. I'm an instructor & armorer, not a salesman. I'm more interested in how well someone with whom I'm working on the range can safely handle & operate whatever handgun it is they're using (by restriction or choice), and especially how well they can controllably & accurately use it in whatever qual or training courses-of-fire are being used at the time.
At one time, when we were looking ahead to cover more off-duty/secondary ammo needs for an order, we stopped to take count of what was being carried in the way of .38 & .380 ammo, reviewing qual records. I was surprised (at that time) to see it was pretty much an even split between the calibers. I've noticed more of both since then, too.
So ... Which of those small "pocket gun" calibers that you're willing to lawfully carry concealed, under whatever anticipated conditions are going to be involved, can you use ... and do so under unexpected circumstances that will probably be chaotic, rapidly evolving, not to mention physically, emotionally & psychologically demanding? Might be in reduced/dim lighting, too, and might involve a situation where you may only be able to use 1 hand.
I don't consider either the .38 Spl +P or the .380, fired from sub-3" barrels, to be exactly "optimal" when it comes to power and potential ballistic performance. I don't try to convince myself that either is what I'd prefer to carry as a primary weapon if I were to again return to duty and working a plainclothes assignment. That's not why I own and use either of them, though.
For me, for .380 ammo, I've tried a few different major-maker JHP's and some FMJ practice loads. I carry one or another of the JHP's at the moment (either Win RA380T T-Series or Speer GDHP, depending what's available at the moment). ask me next year and the answer may, or may not, be the same ... but I'll still be making sure my skillset is such that I'm able to make effective use of the little .380 pistol, regardless of what's loaded in it.
For my .38 snubs? I have several choices of 125-130-135gr +P loads, a couple brands of 158gr LSWCHP/LHP +P and a 110gr standard pressure load (for an older 37), all of which shoot fine in my 7 snubs. I even have a couple Magnum loads I've found that work well in my pair of M&P 340's (without exhibiting bullet pull), but I commonly carry +P loads in those.
Now, if you want to talk about larger .380's that have 3.5"-4" barrels? I'll carry one of my 3"-3.5" 9mm's.
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I have a 642 .38 spc airweight. Compared to the Bodyguard .380 it is approximately 1/2" longer at the barrel, 3/4" longer at the butt, and 3/4" thicker at the cylinder. It fits in the Uncle Mike's but is far thicker and the extra length at the butt makes it much more difficult to get in the pocket. I don't have them weighed but they are probably pretty close in weight when fully loaded.
The Colt Detective Special is close to the S&W Airweight in size but is quite a bit heavier(darned steel) PLUS it has the hammer. I don't own a Colt Police so I can't compare the two.
I also carry a KT P3AT which is the smallest of the bunch and a Ruger LCP. On occasion I carry the DB9.
Maybe I just need bigger pockets? I am one that carries the gun to fit my clothes. I don't dress around my guns. That way I always have an excuse to buy another gun.
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Gun Master
Member
.38 Spl.? or .380?
Re: Your last sentence, I like your way of thinking!
Re: Your last sentence, I like your way of thinking!
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Gun Master
Member
The Remington R51 just may be another alternative, if the early reviews prove correct.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
What Fastbolt said in post #37...
Gooood stufffffffff.
VooDoo
Gooood stufffffffff.
VooDoo
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I load .380, .38 S&W and .38 Special. I use the same bullets for all three calibres. For practice Lee 105 grain SWC. For CC a Hornady XTP at 115 grains. The .380 and .38 SW powder loads are identical. The .38 Special 1 grain more as the loads are used in an Airweight that my mother carries or my Davis derringer.
The .380 and .38 S&W are much more easily controlled by a slight woman or child. The .38 Special has a bit more power but it really does not make that much difference as all of these loads are above 900 FPS and will do equally well with propper shot placement.
The .380 and .38 S&W are much more easily controlled by a slight woman or child. The .38 Special has a bit more power but it really does not make that much difference as all of these loads are above 900 FPS and will do equally well with propper shot placement.
Gun Master
Member
J Frame vs .380
Let me throw out another thought. If you had to fire your weapon where you carry it, and not drawing it out, how do like firing a revolver, rather than .380 in your pocket, or holster, or otherwise in your clothing? I see a lot of problems firing, after the 1st shot, with an autoloader slide trying to operate in those confines.
Comments?
Let me throw out another thought. If you had to fire your weapon where you carry it, and not drawing it out, how do like firing a revolver, rather than .380 in your pocket, or holster, or otherwise in your clothing? I see a lot of problems firing, after the 1st shot, with an autoloader slide trying to operate in those confines.
Comments?
Gun Master, I think that's a valid point and I've heard many people say that when they carry a handgun in a coat pocket, they like it to be a revolver for that reason. That being said, I'd hafta guess the percentage of defensive shootings in which people had to fire from their pockets is less than 5% of shootings... and I'm being waaaayyyy liberal on that estimate. Factor in the percentage of people walking around who've ever had to fire at all... considerably less than 1% I'm sure... and I believe I'll just make my decision based on other factors.
Gun Master
Member
WestKentucky
Member
Hmmm...if like most in a panicked state shoot wildly and miss with the first few shots...what's left in the gun is equal. Most likely it's extra ammo since all that noise scared the bad guy into crying for mommy and ruining his underpants as he heads at least 2 counties in the opposite direction. Even if they stand and fight, those 2 remaining 38s or those 4 remaining 380s are enough to neutralize any threat and still have ammo left. Of course by my reasoning a 22short is in the same arena as a 50bmg. I still think that's pretty accurate at 2 am when the window breaks or your tire goes flat. For that matter a pack of firecrackers is probably better because now the bad guy thinks either 5 guys with guns are after him or one guy with something full auto in his hands.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
I don't have much faith in shooting *any* auto thru my coat pocket and would never do that unless grappling with one hand stuck and pinned in my pocket holding the gun. I'd never try that with my revolver either unless there was absolutely no other option.
I suspect the revolver could pull it off and shoot several rounds - I suspect the auto would shoot one and lock up or not load the next round because of the slide contacting the coat. The odds of that happening are not sufficient to give up pocket carrying of an auto but I'll admit that I do like pocket carry of my LCR an awful lot.
Truthfully autos (and realistically revolvers as well) should always be carried in a holster when pocket carried. The idea of carrying my G42 in a coat pocket without a holster gives me the shivers....
VooDoo
I suspect the revolver could pull it off and shoot several rounds - I suspect the auto would shoot one and lock up or not load the next round because of the slide contacting the coat. The odds of that happening are not sufficient to give up pocket carrying of an auto but I'll admit that I do like pocket carry of my LCR an awful lot.
Truthfully autos (and realistically revolvers as well) should always be carried in a holster when pocket carried. The idea of carrying my G42 in a coat pocket without a holster gives me the shivers....
VooDoo
The Lone Haranguer
Member
It's pretty hard to say that .380 exceeds .38 Special in power as the .38 bullets are heavier. But you can put more .380s, into a smaller and flatter package, than a .38 "snubnose" revolver.
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