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Could someone explain the to me the Kahr/Moonie issue?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by c919, Jun 3, 2010.

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  1. c919

    c919 Member

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    I did a search, but didn't get what I was looking for. Can someone just simply explain why a ton of folks feel disdain for Kahr Arms in relation to the "Moonies".

    I was talking about Kahr to a fellow at the range when he burst into this whole racist rant about his hate for Kahr Arms and the moonies. His buddy chimed in to say that he'd take a stick over a "damn moonie gun" any day of the week.

    So, without getting this thread closed, could someone explain the hatred?
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2010
  2. Dnaltrop

    Dnaltrop Member

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    taken from Wikipedia, am guessing the gentleman doesnt like the Moon empire.

    Kahr Arms is an American small arms manufacturer founded by Kook Jin "Justin" Moon (son of Unification Church founder Sun Myung Moon), who currently serves as CEO and President. It is owned by the Saeilo Corporation (pronounced say-low), a subsidiary of the Unification Church International holding company.[1]

    The "moonies" have some interesting notes if you go through old news articles.

    Did i keep it dry enough To remain safe?
     
  3. David E

    David E Member

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    Turns out "Kook" is his first name....really.
     
  4. c919

    c919 Member

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    Yeah, but I'm still lost. This Moon guy definitely seems like a nut, but who cares?

    Lots of people think Mormons are nuts, but could I care less. I love me some John M. Browning designs. A good gun is a good gun.

    I'm just curious why this guy is so much worse Communists or Nazis....
     
  5. harmonic

    harmonic member

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    Dislike for the Moonie cult is not racism. The Unification church is a cult. Research the meaning of a cult. Then research Sun Yung Moon and his control over his followers.

    That said, I'd own a Kahr if I ever felt the need, but I read their guns have a lot of problems.
     
  6. Dnaltrop

    Dnaltrop Member

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  7. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    Eh. So far as I've been able to determine, the Moonies hold some, er, unorthodox religious views, but don't seem to be possessed of an unusually malignant form of religiosity.
     
  8. harmonic

    harmonic member

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    The founder himself was jailed in Korea for adultery. He preached "blood separation" where female members of his church were required to have sex with him, in order to cleanse the woman from the influence of satan.

    He was also jailed in federal prison here in America for a year for income tax evasion.

    The unification church is a cult. Read up on the characteristics of a cult to know what they do. They separate prospects from family and friends. They pressure the prospect to make an exclusive committment to the organization by depriving them of sleep and food. These are common brainwashing techniques.

    Theologically, their doctrine is probably no more preposterous than half the "religions" in America. But that doesn't make them any less a cult, and their founder any less a scoundrel.

    Still, I'd own one of their guns if someone wanted to give me one.
     
  9. Dnaltrop

    Dnaltrop Member

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    Getting senators to your event without them knowing why they're there is pretty damn slick no matter how you twist it though. This was the first time I'd seen them in the news.

    Thank you wikipedia for condensing it tho.

    Coronation
    In 2004, at a March 23 ceremony in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, in Washington D.C. Moon crowned himself with what was called the "Crown of Peace." [58] United States Representative Danny K. Davis (D-Ill.) carried a pillow holding the ornate crown which Moon "snatched up".[59] Other law makers who attended included Senator Mark Dayton (D-Minn.), Representatives Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md.) and Elijah Cummings (D-Md.) , as well as former Representative Walter Fauntroy (D-D.C.) . Key organizers of the event included George Augustus Stallings, Jr., a controversial former Roman Catholic priest who had been married by Moon, and Michael Jenkins, the president of the American Unification Church at that time.[58]

    Moon delivered a long speech in which he stated that he was

    sent to Earth . . . to save the world's six billion people.... Emperors, kings and presidents . . . have declared to all Heaven and Earth that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent.[58]
    On June 27, 2004 the New York Times editorial board criticized the ceremony and the participation of congressional members.[59] The Associated Press reported that "Many of the congressional members in attendance have said they felt misled into making an appearance that later was used to promote Moon's Unification Church."[60] Some stated that they didn't expect a coronation but thought the awards dinner was only to honor activists from their home states as Ambassadors for Peace.[61]
     
  10. DPris

    DPris Member

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    One huge difference between a gun designed by John Browning & one sold by KAHR is that when you bought a Browning-branded product the profits did not go to a church-owned company. You buy a KAHR-branded product, the profits do.

    Both religions, Mormon & Moonie, are considered cults by traditional definition and by popular view.
    The Mormon church owns no firearms companies, and when you buy "Browning" you're not contributing to the advancement (directly or indirectly) of a cult.

    Since many people see the Moonies as practitioners of bizarre religious doctrine, many choose not to buy KAHR products & express financial or tacit approval of the religion behind them.

    Does that help?
    Not knocking a choice to buy or not to buy, just trying to answer the question.

    Denis
     
  11. DeputyVaughn

    DeputyVaughn Member

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    I believe Moon also has a stake in Auto Ordinance, maker of the "Tommy" gun.

    Scott
     
  12. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    Posts #8, #9, and #10 nail this one to the wall.

    Personally speaking, I'll pass on the company and never own a Kahr for those very reasons alone.

    If the OP couldn't care less, fine, nobody should try and make him think one way or the other.
     
  13. shockwave

    shockwave Member

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    Wow! I had no idea Kahr was a Moonie front.

    They are a dangerous and destructive cult, meeting all of these criteria. They specialize in using their followers as slave labor to take over entire industries by wiping out competitors. Building maintenance and sushi-grade fish supply are two examples. Until recently they owned the Washington Times, using it as a propaganda outlet for the weird, uber-right-wing beliefs of Sun Myung Moon.

    I will never purchase a Kahr product.
     
  14. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "Since many people see the Moonies as practitioners of bizarre religious doctrine"

    It's all too deep for me. I'm still trying to figure out why the Methodists made me drink grape juice at Communion and eat a little cracker/wafer/thingy. Weird.

    John
     
  15. FLAvalanche

    FLAvalanche Member

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    Remembering that we have freedom OF religion and not a freedom FROM religion and considering they haven't flown any jet planes into big buildings, I don't have a problem with them and it's not going to stop me from purchasing a Kahr if I want to.
     
  16. Boxhead

    Boxhead Member

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    I have been thinking a Kahr for a carry gun actually. It is darn nice stuff and I will probably acquire one when I get home.
     
  17. c919

    c919 Member

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    Makes sense to me. Definitely a myriad of reasons not to support Kahr. I personally don't own any Kahr's. My PPS will do just about anything any a Kahr will, and look better doing it. :D

    I did a bit more reading on this Moon guy, and yeah, he's true quack. Well, thanks for the input guys.
     
  18. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    Oh. Horse. Crap. And I only use the word crap because of the language filter.

    I don't know anything about Moonies. Zip. Nada. I've had one Kahr PM9 for about four years, and it's been fine.

    But I'm a Mormon, and I know a few Mormons. So by tradition and popular view, we're a cult? There's 13 million of us. We're one of the largest religions in the country. We live in every neighborhood, hold every job, and serve in every branch of the military. We've got writers, scientists, a bunch of astronauts, athletes, senators (including one particular scumbag), congressmen, governors, and presidential candidates (also a dork) who are Mormon. I don't know what else you've got to do to be considered main stream around here, but hey, whatever.

    We've got good guys and bad guys. We watch the same TV shows, play the same games, and we don't live in compounds nor do we sacrifice goats. If part of the definition of a cult is kidnapping people, and brainwashing them with sleep deprivation and starvation, then we're really missing the boat, because I spent two years as a missionary, and the biggest barrier to entry was mostly trying to get people to quit smoking. Oooooohhhhh... How eeeevviiiilllllllllll.

    And we've only got one wife. There are bizzaro offshoots that live in their desert compounds that call themselves reformed or this that and the other with multiple wives, but guess what? I don't consider David Koresh to represent mainstream Protestants either, so back off. Baptists came from the Anabaptists, but you don't hear anybody freaking out about that either.

    So leave me and John Browning out of it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2010
  19. strambo

    strambo Member

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    How many of the same "never buy a Kahr" posters would, or have, bought Chinese or Russian (pre-Soviet fall) arms and ammunition? Talk about profits going to something "destructive!" :uhoh:

    My understanding was Kahr is not church owned at all, just the founder is the son on Rev. Moon. If I got wrapped up in these issues, I'd feel a lot more morally superior about my K9 purchase than my Chinese SKS purchase so many years ago. I guess I'm complicit in helping the govt. responsible for so many (past and ongoing) human rights violations...my bad.:what:
     
  20. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

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    Gang - we talk guns, not religion. The next post that spends time talking about the pros and cons of any given belief structure will earn the poster a week's free vacation away from THR.

    OK?
     
  21. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    I think the 'C' word is very misunderstood. It is by and large used to describe a group that has distorted, changed, and/or added to the Biblical text. Using the word apart from that relation to original Biblical text, rules, and teachings, the word just seems to mean a kook group, but that definition gets so loose it's meaningless. By that definition, everyone is in their own little cult because the word will be defined by the beholding eye. Nobody who is a member of a cult would ever believe so or use that word to describe their group.

    Sorry if that's a religious jaunt. Just trying to address the word before it is thrown in the wrong direction. I'm not trying to nit-pick any given belief or belief structure.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2010
  22. winchester '97

    winchester '97 Member

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    So what if the guys a perverted nutjob? A lot of you still like Bill "68 gun ban" Ruger's guns lol. My point is i could care less who made it as long as its a good value.
     
  23. DPris

    DPris Member

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    KAHR owns Auto-Ordnance.
    Both are owned by a church-owned holding company. Justin Moon, the chief KAHR designer, is Reverend Moon's son.

    My references to cults, relative to both religions, were made in line with previous posters' commentary & perceptions, and both religions do share cult-like behaviours as defined in more than one book on the subject.
    Those inside them don't see them as cults, those outside frequently perceive them that way. I won't argue it, that's pointless & beyond the scope of the subject at hand.
    My commentary was an effort to respond to the original poster's question, not to bash religion, either specific or general.

    The Mormon church was brought up as a comparison, along with Browning, to the Moonies & spending money that benefits their church. My only purpose in mentioning the Mormons was to illustrate the difference in that context, as well as to illustrate in passing the parallel similarity in the popular conception of both being cults, or at least cultish, which is a demonstrated factor in the decision-making process concerning KAHR products for some.
    I had & have no intentions of participating in a religious war, but I've lived in Utah for over 50 years, I do know that particular church directly.

    People have a variety of reasons for buying or avoiding guns or product lines, and if one happens to be that they dislike the parent company who owns the maker, religious or otherwise, it's as good a reason as any. Some choose not to buy Chinese-made guns, refusing to "support" a Communist regime & what they consider "slave" labor. I don't particularly subscribe to that view myself, but I can respect it in others.

    Discussion of reasons for not buying a brand are normally valid here, I'd think, as long as they don't wander too far afield & become personal, slanderous, vicious, or deteriorate into nothing more than vitriolic diatribe.
    I've addressed the OP, I'm done with it.

    Buy or don't buy KAHR products, based on whichever reasons apply in your own mind.
    Join whichever church you prefer on the same basis.
    Be Moonie, be Mormon, be neither, be nothing. Makes no difference to me. :)

    Denis
     
  24. SMMAssociates

    SMMAssociates Member

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    No real opinion on the Kahr guns - my favorite gun pusher had a very nice one that nobody could figure out how to get apart, though.... He sold it online before I could decide to take the "savings".... But, to be honest, it's probably a reasonable assumption that the money is going someplace most of us would prefer it didn't....

    (Risking a whacking :eek: : I've got a degree in Philosophy and the Psychology of Religion.... Mormonism may have been cultic in the beginning, but has long since move into "mainstream". It began in a time where which side of the altar to place the wine bottle on was "fighting words", and in places where "tolerance" was limited. Grew anyway.... As the "Hitchhiker's Guide" says: "Mostly harmless".... :D Good people, too. I just wish the Marriott Hotel copies of the Book of Mormon had bigger type - I'm getting too old to read it....)

    (My apologies to the mods, but IMHO, somebody had to say this....)

    Regards,
     
  25. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    I sort of agree, sort of. I won't be owning a Kahr, but I will say that I'm impressed with their products that I believe are unrivaled in design. I'm just not going to send a profit up that ladder or show them any demand for the product.

    I never bought any ChiCom or Soviet guns or ammo, but of course, I shop at Walmart and everything there is made in China; can't help that I guess. That issue is more about the quality & cost of foreign goods vs. American made goods. I have no qualms about owning a Norinco 1911 because there isn't the slightest fraction of my purchase money that would reached the Asian shore. Years ago, 1911Tuner made a very good post in that regard and he explained it better than I can.
     
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