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Countrywide: Mere Possession of Concealed Firearm Does Not Justify Terry Stop?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Aim1, Jul 18, 2022.

  1. plainsdrifter

    plainsdrifter Member

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    Well first few sentences are very confusing.

    If your CC'ing how are they going to know to stop you in the first place?
    And if your already stopped and CC'ing then they stopped you for something else.
    Sounds kinda dumb or am I missing something?
     
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  2. GNP

    GNP Member

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    Your firearm became exposed temporarily, or someone spotted a bulge on your beltline and deduced, guessed, or maybe just imagined you had a gun there. Never know. It doesn't take much practice to learn to spot people who are carrying, most will give themselves away if you watch them for a few
    minutes.
     
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  3. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Well first of all, something like this must have actually happened or there wouldn't have been any case to be decided. So let's look at the decision and see if it tells us how this all started, Commonwealth v. Hicks, 208 A.3d 916 (2019), at 921-922:
     
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  4. Johnm1

    Johnm1 Member

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    And from that case, the Pennsylvania supreme court ruled

    https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/commonwealth-v-hicks-208-a-3d-916-pa-2019

    The Supreme Court of Pennsylvania sided with Hicks, holding that “nless a police officer has prior knowledge that a specific individual is not permitted to carry a concealed firearm, and absent articulable facts supporting reasonable suspicion that a firearm is being used or intended to be used in a criminal manner, there simply is no justification for the conclusion that the mere possession of a firearm, where it lawfully may be carried, is alone suggestive of criminal activity.”[6]

    That is Pennsylvania. How it impacts the nation is/would be another case/ruling. Did the state appeal this to a federal district court? Would that even be appropriate as this is an issue on how a state government deals with the fourth amendment.
     
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  5. KyJim

    KyJim Member

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    First, the state does not appeal to a federal district court. The state could seek cert in the U.S. Supreme Court, but this is not the type of case SCOTUS would review.

    Another state, like New York or California, might decide that the facts justify a Terry stop.
     
  6. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    I need to find and update my file for must-inform states I used to have. It was a Word file for business card sized stock that I had all 50 states on that I used to have color coded for this purpose. I'd keep in my my car for handy reference on road trips and update it periodically, especially before known road trips.

    If I can't find it, I'll have to make another.
     
  7. The Glockodile

    The Glockodile Member

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    Would it be more convenient to just list the states with which yours shares reciprocity, and assume they're all must - inform states?

    "Officer, just in case you needed to be informed,..."
     
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  8. Craig_VA

    Craig_VA Contributing Member

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    Not really a valid assumption.
    However, if you treat every state as must inform, life is easier and you will make the cops more comfortable.
    BUT, make sure you have documents showing reciprocity. Cops do not memorize every state whose licenses their state accepts.
     
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  9. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Heh! Would that it were so simple!

    Here's an example:

    I'm a SC resident with a SC permit. SC is a must inform state.

    If I go to NC, NC is also a must inform state. (But the requirements to inform are slightly different.)

    Georgia is not a must inform state and I don't have to inform upon contact with law enforcement in GA.

    Indiana is not a must inform state. However, I DO have to inform law enforcement in Indiana up on contact because Indiana law says I must ALSO follow all the rules of my home state as well...and SC is a must inform state. This derives from IC 35-47-2-21, Sec 21(b) which says "Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana."

    This applies to other aspects, as well. If Indiana allows carry in places SC does not, I am still bound by Indiana statute to follow the restrictions of my own state.


    I'm a believer in exercising our rights, and unless REQUIRED to inform upon contact, I reserve the right to decide this for myself based on my understanding of events at the time of contact.
     
  10. The Glockodile

    The Glockodile Member

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    Would it hurt if one just told them?

    Less chance for mix - ups, and all that.

    Missed that part...
     
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  11. CherokeeGunslinger

    CherokeeGunslinger Member

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    I can personally attest to this as I used to be exclusively an open-carrier.

    Someone posted to the hometown Facebook page of the village I lived in, back in mid-2020. They said "there's a man in an orange shirt with two guns on his belt, walking around town!" First off, I was carrying one gun and had a Safariland double mag pouch (which was leather) at 9:00, opposite the handgun at 3:00. Second, it's legal.

    Some deputies got their panties in a bunch at about 2:00 in the morning because I went out for a walk while open-carrying. Mind you, this is one of the most heavily red counties in Ohio, and it's unlawful for police to perform a Terry stop because you're open-carrying.

    Anyway, I moved to the seat of said county and got a lot less problems. Some people didn't like it, including some brown-nosing old guy, but most people were cool with it. I've started exclusively conceal-carrying as the new constitutional carry law allows it.
     
  12. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    Have you considered doing it on an Excel spreadsheet? You have columns and rows that you can adjust, reset fonts, text colors, and even highlight rows/columns.
     
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  13. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    No, because the purpose was as a small, convenient card to keep in my ashtray during trips. Just a card with a grid that had each state alphabetically by state abbreviations that I had all the "must inform" states shaded/color-coded, along with which states states accepted the SC permit. I think I had the states with reciprocity lightly hashed and the must-inform ones shaded red on top of that.
     
  14. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    OK...I still can't find my original business card file for my Reciprocity Card. So I drafted up a new one in Word and took a screen shot to illustrate.

    Since I just drafted this, I haven't done the detailed research I'd do to verify everything is accurate and up to date. I'm a SC resident, so the shaded areas show all the states which accept my SC permit. The red text are all those states which have a duty to inform of some sort. I don't bother trying to specify what all the duty to inform details are for each, though...only that they DO have some form of duty to inform.

    I typically print this out in color, then laminate a copy to keep in the ashtray of my car. I don't carry it in my wallet, because I try to keep it as thin as possible (a challenge at times as it is).

    Reciprocity Card.jpg
     
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  15. Bennj

    Bennj Member

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    Great idea!
     
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