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Courageous big game hunting runs afoul

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by leadcounsel, Jul 29, 2015.

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  1. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    As a gun owner and genuinely concerned for conservation efforts for big cats, elephants, apes, you name it (yes, I donate money and have for years), and as responsible gun owner, this news article outrages me. :cuss:

    This is the dirty business of those big game hunts that rich people with more money than sense like to go on, misguidedly thinking they are helping. They aren't. They are depleting the population, tampering with the ecosystem, and painting gun owners in a bad light around the world on a public stage.

    Baloney are the arguments that only the weak are being culled under very close supervision and professional guides, etc... This shines a huge light on the fact that this lion was a leader of a pack and healthy, and this tampers with that dynamic, and these hunts are done by extremely selfish individuals who are depleting these amazing creatures for their own self centered pleasure.

    The world is HATING us gun owners right now. Thank you very much. :banghead::banghead:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-killed-Cecil-Lion-bow-arrow-Zimbabwe.html

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/28/africa/zimbabwe-lion-killed/index.html

    In summary, an American dentist and "hunter" paid $55,000 for a big game hunt in Africa to kill a lion. At night they used a spotlight (an illegal tactic in the US for sure) to shine for it. They baited with dead animals. He shot a lion with a crossbow which only wounded it. They then tracked it for 40 hours and when they found it they shot it repeatedly until it died a painful death. Then they saw it was a GPS tagged lion, so they tried to destroy the evidence. And then they skinned it and beheaded it.

    Consider how much farther that $55,000 could have gone toward conservation if it were spent trying to actually do some good and save some of these majestic creatures!

    I am beside myself with sorrow over the lion, and anger over this person I have rage toward. :fire:

    Oh, and this angel has had run ins with the law before, pleading guilty to false statements to the US Fish and Wildlife
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  2. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    Firstly shooters, of all people should know better than to take a news article as gospel. Secondly, Palmer is a seasoned bowhunter and critters don't always cooperate when hit. The cat was shot with a rifle when they finally caught up with it. I watched a Cape buffalo soak up five .577's before giving up. So tracking wounded prey is not uncommon. Thirdly, lions and leopards are almost always hunted over bait. Just like bears are here. It's the safest way to hunt them. The last friggin' thing you want to do is chase the cats into the bush. Fourth, there is a lot of conflicting information about what actually happened and we do not have all the details. Nobody goes to Africa and pays $50,000 to poach when they can pay $50,000 to hunt legally. If the PH and the client say they had a permit, I'm inclined to believe them. Especially over an animal rights zealot like Rodrigez. Zimbabwe has no fences so once critters leave the park, they are no longer protected. However, given your history on the hunting forum, I'm not at all surprised by your reaction here. Your ignorance on the subject is deep.
     
  3. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    Depending on where the information came from, is most certain to effect the facts therein. I've never seen a report provided by a conservation group, as they like to disguise their selves as, submit a report that was pro hunting orientated, no exception here.

    Bleeding hearts are constantly attacking those who have the resources to hunt dangerous game. An esteemed African guide is not going to knowingly, much less accidentally violate game laws, they are professionals, and as such, conduct their hunts with nothing short of absolute professionalism.

    I used to be fascinated by the prospect of hunting dangerous game, but it's just not for me any more, I guess I out grew that aspect of hunting. But I certainly don't frown on those who have the money, not too mention the guts to go after dangerous game, more power to them. And the fact that they invested some 40 hours in tracking this big cat, is only further testament of their moral and professional manner of conducting a hunt such as this, in other words, they did a fantastic job.

    My final thought, if someone doesn't like seeing big cats being hunted, don't watch.

    GS
     
  4. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    This should get interesting.
    An uninformed person, demeaning others based on a single event with a select few people involved with what is likely half true information, if not plain false.


    At least read the sticky.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=189864
     
  5. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    LC,

    The lion was hunted with a bow or a crossbow depending on which version you hear. So shouldn't the world be hating archery owners right now?

    I don't and you don't have any of the facts on this story yet. Johnny Rodrigues much like yourself, is a rabid animal rights/anti hunter so anything he says is going to be heavily biased. It sounds as though you've made up your mind facts or not. I'll wait a bit until there are some reliable non biased, non agenda centric facts presented.

    And if in fact this was a poaching case then justice should be served. As a legal professional and an officer of the court you of all people should understand that basing a legal opinion on emotion alone is a very dangerous and sloppy way to go about business.
     
  6. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    Baits and or lights are legal depending on species and state.

    So a dentist poached a lion. Yeah, and Ambassador Stevens was killed because of a Youtube video.

    Not impressed with LC's posts, esp if they come from a supposed attorney.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  7. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Whatever. I am not going to waste energy engaging this lot over this issue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  8. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    I read the same article during a discussion with another hunter that felt the same as you. Please read the "slant" of the article as it is obviously tremendously anti-gun and anti-hunting in general. "Shooting him dead and beheading him"! Really? If we use these words then every hunt in every place on earth is cruel and the hunter should be shot. In the same article it says that the animal suffered for 40 hours and then that it was recovered that morning.
    None of us know the details. Zimbabwe has arrested the land owner and the guide. The "alleged" hunter paid huge money to get a LEGAL lion tag. Did he know the details of the ALLEGED infractions? My guess is that he did but, again, we don't KNOW this to be true. According to the article the lion was wearing a tracking collar and the hunter attempted to destroy it to hide the evidence. If true then he will be punished.
    Whether or not you personally believe in "big game" hunting really isn't relevant. I personally wouldn't pay $50 to kill a lion, tiger or elephant but many people DO want to do this and they do it all the time completely within the law. The government of Zimbabwe issued a LEGAL permit to take a lion. Unless it is in their laws that it is illegal to hunt in proximity to a reserve then I don't think there would be a legal leg to stand on, at least not in the USA, other than the tampering with a tracking collar.
    Your vitriol for this man based on a report by an OBVIOUS anti-hunter/gun "journalist" is exactly what we don't need. It is his money and he chooses to spend it on big game hunts in Africa. The government of Zimbabwe, and other governments, condones these hunts for some reason and extracts a high price from those that want to spend the money. Why do they allow this, other than hard US dollars? I have no idea. Culling? Depredation? As I said earlier I have no interest at all in doing this type of hunting but I will wait and hear "the rest of the story" before I get all fired up and assume all the "facts" spouted by this article are accurate and wish a quick, "max sentence" on some guy I don't know.
     
  9. wankerjake

    wankerjake Member

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    Lol laffin, not gonna "waste much energy" despite you being the one who brought it up for the sole purpose of trolling. Very mature, very impressed with your discretion there ;)

    Facts aren't out yet, you're slanted articles from biased sources aren't worth much. However, if it comes out that he knowingly poached the lion which nodody is ruling out, you're probably not going to get much argument from us. Nobody is advocating or defending poaching.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  10. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    Same guy was convicted of poaching a bear here in Wisconsin a while back. Similar circumstances, similar ethics. Had a permit to kill a bear but knowingly shot the bear outside the area he had a permit for and then lied to the DNR about where and when the bear was shot. This guy ain't no hunter, he's just a shooter and uses his money to put something in front of him to shoot so he can have it stuffed and displayed in his dentist office.
     
  11. akv3g4n

    akv3g4n Member

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    Even if had no knowledge of legal wrong doing, I can't really fathom anyone that would defend the practice of baiting an animal and shining a spotlight on it so it can be shot with an arrow solely for a prize to hang on your wall. I would think that this practice would offend even most US hunters who claim to use most of their kill to feed their families or others.
     
  12. TimSr

    TimSr Member

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    If this was a typical lawful hunt, why is there a court involved?
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  13. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    Many hunters here in the USA use bait to lure animals to their area, myself included. We use infrared cameras to see what game is in the area and then we hunt based on what we see on the camera. If we are successful we will decapitate the animal and hang his severed head on our wall. Some of us eat the meat but VERY FEW of us actually NEED the meat.
    This is different because the Media says it is different. This is a big, majestic creature. I have plenty of friends that can't believe I would shoot Bambi but they have no problem whatever with having Terminix come out and trap rodents in their home. Big, pretty animal versus a little rodent I guess.

    I, and most hunters, do not condone the illegal killing of any game animal. Most of us will report poaching when we see it or hear about it. If this guy broke the law then he will probably pay for it. If he was mislead by his official guide then he will probably walk away. Based on what I have read so far the guy did nothing illegal. Unethical, cowardly, beastly? Maybe so but we don't get to make that decision and as long as the African governments can make money off of big game hunters they will continue to do so.
     
  14. TimSr

    TimSr Member

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    I can't comment on this as it pertains to the African story, but there are are several nocturnal animals that typically are hunted at night in the US. Fox and coyote are often called and spotlighted at night. A daytime coon hunter would be locked up in the looney bin. Many are baited, like bear, and even deer in many states, and some animals such as wild hogs are often hunted over bait at night.

    I'll also add that aninals and their parts taken LEGALLY in Africa, that are considered "endangered" cannot be taken out of the country or imported into ours by law so the "head on the wall" doesn't apply in many cases. I'm not sure about lions, but you can't bring a single elephant steak home from lawful hunt.
     
  15. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    Hunting at night with artificial light is legal in Zimbabwe in certain zones and on private property. While your comment about importation of elephant is correct as pertaining to Zimbabwe. That is only due to recent developments between Zimbabwe and the USFS. Otherwise in other countries in Africa you can certainly import elephant and other "endangered" animal trophies that are sport hunted and listed via a CITES permit.

    http://www.fws.gov/permits/ImportExport/ImportExport.html
     
  16. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Sounds like he is a high end seasoned poacher. In the bear incident, he feigned ignorance of wrongdoing as well. Funny how people seem to have the same type of problem repetitively.

    This gets into the whole "what is hunting?" dribble and snobbery and isn't really productive. Either he was breaking the law or he wasn't.
     
  17. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    H&H, since you have a lot of experience down there. What are the repercussions if he was found to have poached it?
     
  18. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Member

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    This guy is a first call .....BUM!
     
  19. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    This.

    And if it's true he attempted to destroy the radio collar, he truly is a scumbag.

    All that aside, the thing that sickens me the most, even if the hunt was entirely legal, was the fact that the beast suffers for 40 or so hours with a damned arrow in his side. If you're going to kill, do so quickly and humanely.

    35W
     
  20. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    It helps to read the articles and consider the source. The UK media is notoriously anti-hunting and we all know about CNN. They first reported it as a Spaniard. IMHO, everything about the news articles is suspect.

    The PH reported the "mistake" the next day. So I'm not buying the "they tried to destroy the collar" story. Cecil was a big mature male lion with a prolific mane. The collar was black. I can easily see how circumstances would exist where one could shoot this lion without knowing he was wearing a collar. Of course, I'm wagering that the lion is not protected once he leaves the park, collar or not.

    We don't know the details of the bear hunt. But regardless of what happened there, I have a hard time believing that a licensed PH would risk his business doing something illegal, no matter what the client wanted.
     
  21. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    There is no extradition treaty between the USA and Zimbabwe. So he can not be sent back to Zimbabwe to stand trial or do prison time. However if it is found that he participated in an illegal hunt he can be charged in the USA under the Lacey act. If found guilty the Lacey act has some very serious penalties including some heavy jail time.

    So here is what I do know for a fact so far;

    The PH has been permanently banned from the ZPHGA (Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association).He obviously and knowingly broke the law.

    The land owner and the PH have been taken into court for a hearing as to whether or not they have committed a crime. I am almost positive that the ranch they were hunting on was one that has been "repatriated" from a white farmer by the Zimbabwe government and given to a "war veteran" AKA a crook who has friends in the right places. These guys are all about the money.

    The PH had a lion permit and the legal right to offer a lion to hunt in Zimbabwe.

    The area that they were hunting in did not have a lion on quota.

    That is the equivalent of having a hunting license in a particular unit then hunting in another unit that is closed.

    The hunter booked the hunt through the PH. Whether he knew the hunt was in an area with no lion quota is the question.

    I can see this from two perspectives. The first and most likely is that the hunter booked a hunt with the PH, he had a CITES permit arraigned on this end. The PH told him that everything was good to go and that he had a great property available on that end. The hunter trusted that he was using the services of a licensed professional hunter and that everything was on the up and up. When you think about it this could very easily happen to anybody who is booking a hunt in any area they are not familiar with. You book a hunt you hire a guide and you assume that the guide is a professional and that everything is above board. You only find out that you were involved in an illegal hunt two years later when the USFWS knocks on your door and starts asking questions about your guided hunt to XYZ with _____________ the hunting guide.

    The other scenario is that the hunter knew the local hunting blocks and their associated quotas. Then knowingly decided to poach a GPS collared world famous lion. Also knowing that if he was caught doing so in Zimbabwe would be thrown in prison there which is most likely an automatic death sentence for anybody but the most hardened African gang banger. Yet he was so overcome with blood lust and greed that he decided to throw away $55 K, because he would have also known that this lion could never be exported, he decided to throw away his highly successful dental career and risk it all just so that he could lay claim to having killed the most famous park lion in Zimbabwe.

    My guess is that the paying hunter thought that he was on a legit hunt. That the PH and the land owner were the true criminals in this.

    The details of what happened after he lion was wounded are not know. We do know that he was tracked and dispatched with a rifle. We don't know if the hunter was with the PH when he finished the lion off. We do not know if the hunter had any knowledge of the collar and the subsequent destruction of that collar. To my way of thinking that is where we find out if the hunter crossed the line. If he was there when the collar was cut and destroyed he had to know that something was not right.



    Time will tell.
     
  22. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Come on guys... This thing is hitting every news outlet with new info added routinely. Its like any other news story... Wrong at first, but the facts come out with enough time.

    The Dentist is a convicted felon for the same type of indiscretion. The PH Theo Bronkhorst and farm owner were charged this morning.

    We must remember that every Hunter is not ethical.
     
  23. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    And the cop in Ferguson killed a man with his hands up. I know because it was on the "news".

    I don't think anyone is really saying that the hunter was innocent but that we shouldn't decide guilt based on a "breaking story" where the "facts" are constantly changing. Maybe the guy's a dip and knew exactly what was going on and, as HH said, maybe he had no idea exactly what the guide was doing. Maybe somewhere in the middle?

    We may eventually find out the truth. Or we may not. The Media will tell us what they want us to know.
     
  24. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    So if you suspect everything, then the claim that...

    ...must also be suspect.

    The blaming of the media isn't the issue here either. Unless you have something to back your suspicions about errors of fact, then you can't claim the media is suspect of distorting the story and then rely on information from the story to support your point.

    Really?

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...itters-face-illegal-hunting-charges-1.2994860
    http://articles.latimes.com/1992-12-06/news/mn-3597_1_big-game-guides
    http://www.startribune.com/bear-guide-convicted-of-poaching-faces-4-000-in-fines/302934331/
    http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/26/us/poachers-enlisted-to-save-big-game.html
    http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2010/11/50-biggest-poaching-fines-ever/?image=3
    http://www.fws.gov/midwest/news/423.html
    http://www.al.com/news/montgomery/index.ssf/2015/07/alabama_man_convicted_of_leadi.html
    http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/big-g...piracy-charge-connection-colorado-outfitter-s
    http://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/2246805-151/bend-man-convicted-in-illegal-hunting-case#
    http://m.kcci.com/hunting-guide-convicted-of-leading-illegal-deer-hunts/22987014
    http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article324429/Kansas-guide-convicted-in-TV-hunting-case.html

    While you may have trouble believing it, plenty of PHs have been convicted of poaching. The above links are just a sampling. Yes, they do so at the risk of losing their business, licenses, possessions, and often their freedom. PHs are people, plain and simple. The only ways in which they are special is in having special hunting knowledge and profession. You would not think a medical doctor would do stuff illegal either, right, and risk losing his/her practice, yet it happens. Doctors are just people as well.

    No, we may not know the details of the bear hunt, but we do know the conviction.
     
  25. Lord Teapot

    Lord Teapot Member

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    lion was 13, had bred plenty of times. i'm more concerned over the hypocrisy, last i checked they were going to let the surviving cubs be killed, rather than rescuing them and sending them to zoos or somewhere. so, it's somehow a big deal to kill one old lion, but it's 100% ok to standby while a half dozen baby lions are slaughtered? the left needs to get its collective head out of the sand and stop murdering/allowing the murder of babies, seems to be a past-time for them.
     
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