Discussion in 'Hunting' started by leadcounsel, Jul 29, 2015.
Cecil the lion may be dead but Anthony the antelope can rest a little easier.
I have a simple, economic and swift solution. This should appeal to any person who genuinely wants to save the big cats, elephants and other African species. It comes at no additional costs.
The US gives $12 BILLION in aid to Africa for economic development, infrastructure, health, etc. We can turn that off in an instant. $12,000,000,000 is far more than they make on these stupid "hunts." The US can and should lean on Africa to implement the simple straight forward policy.
1) Illegal to kill any of the following species unless it is an imminent threat to the village or an unprovoking person: Big cats, elephants, rhinos, etc.
2) Illegal to possess any body part, head, skin, horns, or meat from one of these animals.
3) Punishment is minimum 20 years in 3rd world prison, up to death, depending on the aggravating factors.
4) Patrol the sky, borders and lands with drones. Put one of the Army Africom Battalions or Brigades on patrol across Africa, partnering with the local military and police. Pay informants heavy finders fees for reporting on hunters and poachers.
I bet that would immediately halt poaching and hunting activities. And the "conservationists" here should applaud such a measure, since they are altruistically trying to save these species (or at least that's their argument).
We surely punish other crimes as heavily or worse in parts of the world, like drug or gold or diamond smuggling. I have zero issues with putting to death poachers of these great creatures, since the poachers are among the lowest forms of humanity...
In the case of the rhino that was taken a few months ago that everyone was up in arms over- that particular rhino was 1 of 5 that were designated for elimination due to their age. They were no longer siring new rhinos and attacking the younger males. They are also competing with the younger rhinos for resources. So the government could just kill these rhinos, or allow a fatcat to come along and pay a 5 digit sum for the privilege, in which the money goes right back into conservation of the rest of the herd. Big hunter gets a trophy, the herd gets reduced competition, and the local village gets a few hundred pounds of meat. Sounds like a net win to me.
wow.. now he wants to use our wasted tax dollars to arm terrorist groups with drones and kill hunters for hunting the big 5... This thread has gone from strange to flat out stupid.
But it suddenly becomes not culling and not conservation if a hunter pays to do it instead of a park ranger doing it for minimum wage?
How does that work?
Do you understand how the process of issuing tags works? Do you think it's done willy nilly by throwing darts at a board?
Why not? That's the pattern with historical precedent. You remove the ability to hunt the animals and there is no longer an economic incentive to keep them around. Oh sure, someone will pay to come take pictures of them and that will go gang busters... Which is the hidden explanation behind why zoos are such economic powerhouses these days.. oh, most of them rely on grants and research funding?... Well, maybe that's why all those drive through wilderness parks are making such epic money... Oh, they all went broke too.. I guess keeping animals around because they are nice to look at wasn't exactly the massive economic force everyone hoped it would be.
Tell me something, have you ever seen something like this dedicated to photo safaris:
It's not hard to follow the money on this.
You know, just out of curiosity I Googled just how much a photo safari would run and found out it would be under $5,000... or, roughly 1/11th of what this hunter paid. Ouch.
You really have absolutely no clue about the difference between regional animal population and localized animal population do you? If you continental population is low, you can still have regional populations that are dangerously high. If you absolutely stop killing on a continental level and ignore regionally high populations you will get overpopulation and herd sized die offs.
This is the kind of idiotic self enforced ignorance that lead to the killing of tens of thousands of endangered exotic animals here in the US.
That is the $64 question. It is a question that may begin to be answered through a successful social media campaign and end with successful political activism to convince the U.S. Government to intercede. The history of the United States is filled with examples of money being raised from millions of small contributions and politicians seeking the good will of the electorate to save one thing or another simply because of the pleasure of having it in the World. Another source of revenue would be the elimination of U.S. government funding for one or two F-35s so that the money could be used for conservation and management. I am sure African governmental officials could be enticed to accept money for this if other enticements were provided, one of which would be increased revenues from eco-tourism.
So now the US military should sell off fighter planes to give corrupt African governments money? You really think they could be "enticed" to take it? You sure?
I see another source of funding. Your posts are comedy gold. Pure gold I say.
A photo safari is MUCH more sustainable. You can take 50 people through PER DAY - that's an endless resource at $5,000 per person... so that's $50,000 per day for endless days, in my example.
Versus killing one out of 20,000 remaining, for a one-time fee. Ethics aside, it makes no economic sense.
I never said any of that...
But the point in there is a good one. Our budget dust on our interest on the debt could solve this problem. Implementing and enforcing strict laws could solve this problem.
Sorry Nom De Forum said it. But you agree huh?
Leadcounsel none of your ideas have taken the Chinese interest into consideration. Pretending this story is 100 percent reliable, it still is nothing compared the Chinese encouraging formal poaching in Africa. Again pretending this guy is worthless, and the worst example of a American big game hunter in Africa, his actions are not even affliated with the actual threat.
From any perspective, including NPR, the threat to African wildlife is poaching and other economic instabilities. It has realisticly nothing to do with Americans paying a top honest dollar top to participate in African culture. If you want to blame somebody, blame the faulty cause.
Don't blame us for doing what Humans have always done.
You apparently didn't read my suggestion of severe criminal penalties as a solution. The willingness of people to die to poach will narrow that market quite quickly.
I know one thing, I wouldn't want to be this joker Walter Palmer right now. I hope it was worth it to him - killing all those big game and doing so unethically and illegally (at least in some instances). It's all come home to roost.
With possible prosecution here or in Africa, serious negative stigma, he's had to go into hiding and close his business, his website was overrun so he had to shut it down, he's being overwhelmed on Yelp and other social media, had to shut down all his social media like facebook, received death threats, the possibility of losing his practice and medical license, and staying in hiding, among the most hating people in America at the moment... it's overwhelming social media... maybe it will pass, maybe not. But I feel not one ounce of sympathy for him.
I noticed people putting up his adress on Facebook. Under any circumstances I always hate that. I think it presents clear and present danger. No doubt, he is in a world of hell as we speak.
I am all in favor of punishing poachers, as I believe most of us on THR are. I still am not understanding who will punish the poachers? Or how the punishers of poachers will have funding or equipment to take on Chinese funded armies? I say armies not as a figure of speech. Ive read, and heard first hand accounts of African LE seriously using spears to throw at helicopters. Im not making it up. I heard it on NPR of all places. The same small country brought their case to the U.N. China ackowledged it, but made it clear they had no intention of backing off of ravishing Africa on any level. In a non sarcastic or arrogant tone, we all can think up things we wish were different. My imagination could get carried away. I will attempt to track down the program.
But even if the program isnt real, and I just made up a quick convienant story to lie to a stranger, as a broad rule, what makes money make sense.
Pretending I am not a hunter, which I am:
People will hunt no matter what. I think the value of our U.S. dollar promoting economical, realistic and sustainable growth in Africa will protect more animals, people, children, and utilitarian quality of life than hoping that animals wont keep on killing animals.
i just came back from a hunting trip in africa and i was welcomed at the three places i hunted and all animals were take taken by fair chase and leagle means, and because i hunt it pisses me off when so called do gooders try to lump all ethical hunters in with a few low lifes. here at a few pic,s, a wire snare used by local pouchers to catch animals(the ranch owner had hunderds of them and gave me two), the pair of boots i wore with the tread wear showing and three black rhinos i saw that are alive because of the hunters monies. the photo hunts do not bring any where near the monies in that the hunters do along with the loss of the meat( i gave close to a ton of meat free) and as the trackers and skinners are not needed they will lose their jobs and jobs are scarce in that part of the world. i also know i,m not going to change any ones mind as most people,s minds are made up on what side of the fence they are on. eastbank.
So, someone gives a lion the stupid name of Cecil and suddenly he's a celebrity and you can't shoot him. If Cecil is a pet, put him in a zoo or take him home.
Also, I hope all of you that are whining about Cecil are vegetarians like the rest of the Antis (LOL).
What on earth did I say for you to lun\mp me in with the animal rights kooks?
It comes from projections that they will extinct in my lifetime and that the US Fish and Wildlife service is actively trying to add them to the Endangered Species act.
Great pictures eastbank! I said it before, and i'll say it again. I envy you. My dream has always been an African hunt. Thanks for sharing!
This entire lion story can be summarized in one sentence:
The antis' standard procedure is to purposely try to confuse and blur the profound distiction between recreational hunters and commercial poachers so that the ignorant will believe they are one in the same.
I can respect a logical argument that I disagree with. I despise ginning up illogical emotional reactions with deception. Any sportshunter would join in condemning this incident, but rather then being united in condemnation, the antis would prefer divison by equating ethical hunts, and accusing ethical hunters of doing the same.
There are similar "projections" for polar bears, which are at their highest populations since 1972 based on "projections" of "global warming", which is now being overshadowed by "projections" of several years of record cold.
if your child was just dragged out of your hut and chewed on by a cecil, you would have liked to seen cecil go extinct last month. and it happens in africa on a regular basis by several meat eating animals. eastbank.
this is a line fence and very few african animals can not jump over it, i saw a 3/4 ton eland clear this fence by two feet minutes before the picture was taken. eastbank..
That wouldn't stop anything in Texas either.
Uh... Your math.... It's um... well... I don't know how to say this, but you might want to check in with a calculator.
And before you do the math right and get all "OMG, it's even worse for you now", you really need to examine why all the drive through "Safari" parks aren't going gangbusters and raking in the cash. There's a big difference between the real world and the idealized world photo safari proponents live in. It turns out there isn't a huge unending line of people willing to cash out wads of money for the opportunity to take a picture of an animal from a tour bus with fifty other people.
Again, you completely fail to understand total population versus local population. 20,000 lions left might not be a whole lot in the view of the whole world, but if 19,000 of those lions live in a two square mile area, you have a problem.
Oh, and if you have 20,000 lions, killing a lion isn't a one time event. You've got 19,999 more tries. Well, no not really. That's misrepresenting the situation. As long as you are killing below the birth rate, you have an infinite number more tries. Lions, like any other animal, are not a finite resource when managed properly.
I have no idea why I saw you in that mix. My apologies.
I can't get very worked up about this whole thread but I would like to make one point. I can't believe that a dentist from Minnesota would fly all the way to Zimbabwe and then hunt land that joins a game preserve. Surely there is wild back country that would be more interesting to hunt even though the challenge would be greater. Every trophy animal that this guy has taken was probably located by someone else and he was put into position for the shot by writing a check. This doesn't make him a hunter it makes him a shooter. There is a big difference. Hunters don't make the news, shooters make the news.
Separate names with a comma.