Court ruling on dealer handgun sales to 18-year-olds

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Howland937, Jul 13, 2021.

  1. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    My kids are 15 and 11. I currently reject patronizing generic attitudes directed towards all teens just same as I did when I was a teen. My self-assessment of my 18 year old self is a bit different than yours. At the 14-18 age range, I was carrying a handgun regularly and as much as legally possible. In the calendar year I turned 18, I finished my Eagle Scout, was Valedictorian at my HS, and started engineering school on a 4-year Army ROTC scholarship.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
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  2. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    I've owned firearms since I was 10 (although technically my parents bought them) this was well before 1968. There are some that would not be mature enough to own firearms at any age. I'm not sure age, by itself, is a reliable measure of maturity or responsibility.
     
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  3. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

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    It’s not about you or me, or your kids or mine. The fact that we are here talking says that we and our kids are probably all good. But look around in Chicago, rural Tennessee, etc. at a whole bunch of kids that aren’t doing so well.
     
  4. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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    Screenshot_20210714-133041_Office.jpg
    Screen grab of the PDF file. Dunno if someone can looks it up by case number? It was linked in a WSJ article but I could only download the whole 141 page file.
     
  5. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    Does this work?

    https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/192250.P.pdf
     
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  6. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

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  7. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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  8. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    So because of the examples of places like Chicago and rural Tennessee, we should decide to label them all as desfunctional idiots and raise the age of adulthood to 25? I was promoted to CPT at 25 and worked with E6's who were 25- I think we might have been just a bit offended if told we were "just becoming adults" at the time.
     
  9. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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  10. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

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    Enough chest thumping already. I enlisted when I was 17. I was qualified and licensed as an instructor to teach others how to operate a $200 million nuclear reactor, US Navy, when I was 20. You know, before I could buy a beer. So what? I worked for a living before I went to college and got my engineering degree at 28.

    Your option to raising the from age 18 to 25? Do nothing, or convince their parents to do a better job?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  11. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Link: https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/HirschfeldvATF.pdf

    Snip:
     
  12. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    Then I am surprised with that level of responsibility and service, which I applaud, that you feel the way that you do. I am not trying to chest thump, but highlight why blanket distinctions based on age are just as problematic as other discriminatory factors.
     
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  13. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    Then it seems as if you are one of the exceptions, even back then. Your biggest job now is to instill that attitude into not only your offspring, but any other youngster of similar age with whom you have regular contact.
     
  14. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    The question of maturity and majority is far, far larger than THR probably ought allow.

    Justice Richardson's opening sentences probably set it as simply as possible: "When do constitutional rights vest? At 18 or 21? 16 or 25? Why not 13 or 33? In the law, a line must sometimes be drawn. But there must be a reason why constitutional rights cannot be enjoyed until a certain age. Our nation’s most cherished constitutional rights vest no later than 18. And the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms is no different."

    There's any level of evidence that human brains require more maturity than ordinary majority presently allows. However, legally, we can make a presumption of "enough" maturity to hold to laws as written.
     
  15. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    And where does a 15-16 yr old being tried as an adult fit into all this?

    Its a muddy quagmire swampy mess of a topic.
     
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  16. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

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    It goes to definition. If the law says, “18” is the age of majority…do not try to those younger as adults. At times, consistency is difficult. A perfect example would be the two girls in DC (I think) who carjacked a man - ultimately to his death - murder. They will be out at 21 (I think). I would prefer a clear and consistently applied law than various shades of grey.
     
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  17. SquidBubble

    SquidBubble Member

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    They cannot sell to 18-20 year olds yet. The laws are still on the books so until they're repealed, if they're repealed and they urgently need to be, no gun stores can sell handguns to anyone under 21.
     
  18. jrmiddleton425

    jrmiddleton425 Member

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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  19. RickD427

    RickD427 Member

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    Nope. That's not the way it works. Once there is a final court decision that a statute is constitutionally infirm, then it becomes without effect. Please refer to the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Marbury v Madison.

    But at the same time, the Fourth Circuit's decision is still not yet final. The Circuit judges still have the option of an En Banc rehearing and the rules allow for some time for that decision to be reached. Once the court issues its mandate in the case, then the statute is toast, even if not repealed.

    I spent the majority of my law enforcement career in California, with California's "Stop and ID" statute sill existing, even though the U.S. Supreme Court had declared it unconstitutional decades earlier. It takes a while for the state legislatures to keep up with the courts, even if the courts move at a glacial pace.
     
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  20. SquidBubble

    SquidBubble Member

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    I misspoke about the "repealing" part. You're right, a repeal by the legislators who passed this BS is not the only option to render the ban null & void. The law is still in effect at this time, so gun stores cannot legally start selling handguns to 18-20 year olds right away just because two judges on a three-judge panel issued an opinion. This will need to be hashed out. Everyone here already knows how this should resolve, but sadly not all judges are on the Constitution's side.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  21. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    I actually took issue with the verbiage there. I agree with the implied sentiment, but the way it reads my mind immediately went to an old friend of the family who was a retired police officer from Bradford England. His daughter was my neighbor, and I will never forget the look of defeat on his face when he reached a given age at which he was no longer eligible to serve in his lifelong role. He said something along the lines of having given his life to his city he was now thrown out on the rubbish pile to rot simply because of a nonsensical number. The verbiage by Justice Richardson seems to imply that if there is a point at which rights automatically become vested then there must also be some magical number at which the rights no longer apply. Thankfully we don’t have such laws in the US but I can absolutely see them coming down the line. If the point of maturity and majority is delineated by law then that same law needs to very plainly state that it remains valid until a persons death or having been deemed mentally incompetent based upon medical diagnosis to allow for things like Alzheimer’s, but not to otherwise infringe just because a person is old and has different views.

    I agree it’s bigger than THR, but it’s a legit attack on rights elsewhere and our congressleaches very seldom invent anything new, they just steal from other countries and modify to fit their agendas.
     
  22. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Merged the two threads and did a bit of cleanup.
     
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  23. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Just an observation. When I used to hang out at the local Gun Shop. I always thought is was a bit strange that an 18 year old could come in and be refused a handgun but could walk out with an AK, AR, Semi Auto Shotgun, and ammunition.??
    And of course they could be in the Military , sign a contract, vote but could not buy alcohol or that darn handgun??
     
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  24. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    There are both federal and state laws on guns.

    This court ruling against the federal 21 age limit for buying a firearm might make 18 the age limit for handgun as well as long gun sales.

    States may have age limits on handgun sales and handgun ownership/possession.

    I have always been told that the state law governs age limits on possession, not federal law.
     
  25. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    That's a very legitimate point, and one not often applied nearly often enough to age-related regulations.

    But, it's also a confusion, too. Three things are "at play" when legally using age as a metric. One is physical ability and acuity. The other is maturity. The last is one of consent. Each of these are complicated waters to tread within.

    I'm middling confident that Justice Richardson was using the notion of legal consent , that being the age when people are considered to be able to understand and accept the responsibility for their legal actions and the consequences. Generally, under the law such Rights only expire when the individual does.

    But, it can be easy to conflate such with things like mandatory retirement ages, which are generally linked to physical and/or mental infirmity (and, as generalities are always absurd in the specific, individual, case). I cannot see that argument being inserted here. Which may be an issue with my ability to imagine things.
     
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