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Courthouse shooting video

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Preacherman, Jun 28, 2006.

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  1. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    I did a search for this, but couldn't find any other threads on it, so here goes.

    The link below takes you to a video of a courthouse shooting in Tyler, TX. The action moves from there to a car chase of the suspect, who is eventually shot (on camera) by a policeman. Probably a "not safe for work" video - or for kids.

    http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/courthouse-psycho.html
     
  2. Punkermonkey

    Punkermonkey Member

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    I remember that. Wasn't a civilian involved in that too? IIRC a very brave gentleman from the building across the street attempted to intervene with his .45 and wound up distracting the shooter long enough for the officers to arrive before he was gunned down. It was said that he saved one of the intended victims lives.

    As a side note, the narrator describes the weapons fire as coming from a machine gun. I love me some media ignorance.
     
  3. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    so was this guy wearing body armor or are these cops just really bad shots?
     
  4. Punkermonkey

    Punkermonkey Member

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    I believe he was wearing body armor.
     
  5. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    He was wearing armor.

    A brave gentleman named Mark Allen Wilson stepped up to the plate with his 1911, unknowingly taking cover behind the perpetrator's getaway vehicle. IIRC, he hit the perp several times, without effect.

    The lesson learned is to keep a long gun handy.


    edited to add:

    Just watched the clip.

    They completely blew off Mr. Wilson.
     
  6. Wes Janson

    Wes Janson Member

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    They didn't mention him at all in the video. Gotta love how they focused on that "courageous" camerman who didn't even have the guts to go near a window, while not even speaking the name of the citizen who did fight back, and lost.

    Note that at the end of the chase, the officer with the Colt fired multiple shots, but it looks like his first (and clearest) shot missed, and then he hit with the second right before the suspect reached concealment (not exactly cover from a .223). I wonder if he jerked the trigger on that, or didn't align his sights, or what. Unfortunately not a question Dateline or World's Scariest Blah Blah Videos is going to know to ask :/
     
  7. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Dude lays down his life to protect a stranger and doesn't ever warrant a mention. If that's not an example of media bias, I dunno what is. There is no way that the narrator/reporter could have reasonably not known about Wilson's intervention and heroism. *THAT* chaps my fanny.... :fire:

    I think you've got to give props to Sgt Jacks, who ultimately took down Arroyo. Riding into the courthouse square on the hood of the squad car to intervene was, to my untrained eye, a ballsy and pretty smart move. I was impressed.
     
  8. XavierBreath

    XavierBreath Member

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    The media bias is eternal. Texans, however, did not forget Mark Wilson. God bless Texas.

    More
     
  9. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    The Sheriff's spokesman said that Mr. Wilson's intervention almost certainly saved lives. While his shots may not have killed the shooter, those at the scene were quite certain that they had a definite beneficial effect.

    There was some speculation at the time that at least one of Mr. Wilson's shots injured the shooter in an area not covered by the body armor and may have been the reason he left the scene when he did.

    Some links with amplifying information.
    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=127296&
    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=127921&
    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=127277&
    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=127187&
     
  10. nico

    nico Member

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    that's the first thing that came to mind when they showed the security camera shot. I'm sure they'd say it was just an oversight though:barf: :fire:
     
  11. YellowLab

    YellowLab member

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    WHY did the cops engage the shooter with pistols?

    Perp has RANGE and POWER on his side. Plus a 30 round magazine.

    Cops did not properly evaluate the situation, but that went into fight or flight mode.

    I do not see this as a good LEO response, there was only 1 rifle in the entire police force available within X minutes?

    Citizen did a good thing, he's DEAD, hope thats some consolation to the family.

    All in all I call this a cluster F--- on all accounts.
    Cop rode around ON THE HOOD OF THE CRUISER? NO COVER, NO COCEALMENT, NO RETREAT, NO STABLE SHOOTING PLATFORM. That nut went into HERO mode... not smart.

    Cops would lose cover to take a shot.. why not run the SOB over in a car?

    Why not CONTAIN the situation and wait for appropiate backup?

    Sucks that people died... but so many BAD DECISIONS on part of LEO that just shows that they are not well prepared, well trained or have good judgement.
     
  12. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    Because it was the guns they HAD.

    IIRC, there's a saying about the gun ya brung, being better than one locked up @ the armory...as was most likely the case here.

    Engaging the perp, even with suboptimal arms denied him complete freedom of action, which is a good thing.

    The TJ Hooker cruiser hood maneuver was a bit strange, but I believe the intent was to get to the fight rapidly, jump off, and engage the perp while he was still on foot.

    (Dragoons, I believe, were soldiers who rode horses into battle, dismounted, and then fought on foot rather than horseback....same basic idea.)

    As for containment, how exactly would you go about that?

    Shoot him? Tackle him? Ring him round in yellow "Police Scene, do not cross" tape? It's pretty hard to contain an armored, well armed uncooperative subject.

    I'm not sure you'd even WANT to deny him vehicle use, since that takes the gunfight to somewhere other than mainstreet, usa. The alternative would be the fight moving off the town square on foot and into....where? Restaurant and hostages, maybe?

    To your point, the choices they made weren't great, but they weren't that bad.

    The lesson the cops should take away is the same one we did:

    Have rifles handy.
     
  13. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    C'mon - let's be fair. The situation was unexpected, and as a result the reaction was understandably fluid and uncoordinated.

    My perspective was that it allowed the officer to get into the fight no matter what was going on. Had the officer been inside the patrol car, his ability to scan and return fire to any direction would have been vastly reduced and his ability to respond would have been constrained by the physical limitations imposed by the need to exit the vehicle.

    In my view, the officer placed himself outside of some minimal cover (doors, windshield) to gain the advantage of situational awareness and mobility. It still looks like a pretty smart move to me, at least until the more formally trained amongst y'all properly set me straight. :)
     
  14. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Member

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    "WHY did the cops engage the shooter with pistols?

    Perp has RANGE and POWER on his side. Plus a 30 round magazine.

    Cops did not properly evaluate the situation, but that went into fight or flight mode.

    I do not see this as a good LEO response, there was only 1 rifle in the entire police force available within X minutes?

    Citizen did a good thing, he's DEAD, hope thats some consolation to the family.

    All in all I call this a cluster F--- on all accounts.
    Cop rode around ON THE HOOD OF THE CRUISER? NO COVER, NO COCEALMENT, NO RETREAT, NO STABLE SHOOTING PLATFORM. That nut went into HERO mode... not smart.

    Cops would lose cover to take a shot.. why not run the SOB over in a car?

    Why not CONTAIN the situation and wait for appropiate backup?

    Sucks that people died... but so many BAD DECISIONS on part of LEO that just shows that they are not well prepared, well trained or have good judgement."



    So........the cops did a bad thing by engaging the shooter, but the citizen did a good thing by engaging the shooter? :scrutiny:

    And as far as "contain the situation and wait for backup".......um, is that what they did at Columbine? Seems everyone was screaming why didn't the police charge right in.

    Amazing :banghead:
     
  15. YellowLab

    YellowLab member

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    Wow.. you people think that a decree from the legislature about your 'HEROIC DEATH' is a good thing? A shooting retreat, or if you know all hope is lost a charge... but time to take 6+ shots? The citizen had to have lost situational awareness as the BG was coming right at him. Lay on the ground and shoot his feet off.... take the time for a head shot.... do what you need to do to increase your odds of ending the threat. COM is not working.... switch to head/legs/arms. Who waits that long in a SHTF scenario? GET OUT OF DODGE and live to tell the tale.

    Did you watch the video? When LEOs were at the courthouse door? Getting clobbered? About 6 LEOs total?

    Yes you can contain the situation..... IF HE CAN'T SEE YOU you odds of getting shot go WAY DOWN. Get the sheep out of the way and hold up. It will be dynamic... but less blood on the street that taking pot shots when you are outgunned and out armoured.

    When T.J. HOOKER (Sgt. Jacks?) shows up and rides the hood of the patrol car to his death, hopefully you can get his AR before the BG.

    COME ON... how F'in REDICULOUS was that LEO on the hood of the car? He wanted to be free to move? He had BETTER BE FREE TO MOVE his ass is in the open, with no chance of getting a shot off. I would kick that LEO off whatever SWAT unit he is in... COME ON... RIDING ON THE HOOD OF A CAR TO ENGAGE A BG? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

    Patrol LEOs are NOT trained or equiped to stop an armoured BG with an assault rifle. Someone PLEASE put that in the memo and get it out ASAP. And the second memo is for the SWAT team. LAYING ON THE HOOD OF A CAR INTO AN ENGAGEMENT IS NOT COVER, IS NOT CONCEALMENT, IS NOT A GOOD SHOOTING PLATFORM, AND THAT BULLET YOU GET FROM THE BG WILL INHIBIT YOUR FREEDOM TO MOVE AROUND.
     
  16. Tokugawa

    Tokugawa Member

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    well it's real easy to second guess, I am glad those cops stepped up to the plate. Yeah , maybe they need more training or a rifle handier, but THEY were the ones who were there. They had the essential ingredient - courage. So what are ya gonna do? Hole up in the courthouse behind cover while a guy goes down the street killing people ? Apparently in Texas, the law still believes they are there to "Serve and Protect", and are willing to put thier ass on the line to do it.
     
  17. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Getting back on track, I thought the video quite poor. It portrayed the cops as inept hero baffoons, which they were not...with the possible exception of the SWAT officer and his Colt "Command" AR15 made for precision shooting that is actually a Colt "Commando" AR15 with an 11.5" barrel that is hardly a precision AR15. Nobody in their right mind rides around on the front of a car like he did. There are many ways to ride on top of a car and that has to be about the worst one.

    It sucks the vid left out the part about Mark Wilson. That just isn't right.

    I was surprised to find the video produced by Court TV. Their stuff often seems pretty good.
     
  18. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    Yellowlab, if you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that Mark Wilson inadvertently took cover behind Arroyo's truck. Arroyo was shot by Wilson while in the middle of street. He and Wilson exchanged shots from either side of Arroyos truck. Wilson went prone to shoot under the truck, Arroyo ran around truck, Wilson turned to run and was shot in the back of the head. Arroyo then stood over and shot him multiple times, then left in his truck.

    As for head shots...well, paper doesn't shoot back, now does it? Nor does it stand still. Nor do you, in that situation.

    Mark Allen Wilson did a lot of reasonable things, and died as a result of the fortunes of combat.

    Anyone who carries a gun (and even folks who don't) should get used to the idea that they can do everything right, avoid all mistakes, and still get killed.


    Gunfights are entirely "come as you are" affairs, and I'd rather see good people doing _something_, rather than waiting around for the cavalry while a madman runs amok.

    The perfect is the enemy of the good.
     
  19. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Member

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    I remember seeing the video on tv and thought, what the hell is he doing?

    But I wasn't there. I doubt I would ever do something like that, but to those there it sounded like a good idea.
     
  20. pcf

    pcf Member

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    Why don't you you tell us how much safer he would have been from close range RIFLE fire inside of the vehicle? Getting trapped inside a vehicle, when the BG has a rifle isn't a favorable situation either. The officer driving pulled up right behind the BG's vehicle. If the BG got out, and both officers were in the vehicle, he'd be shooting fish in a barrel. Or where should he have been?

    Was the hood of a car a bad place to be, absolutely. But charging into a gunfight is always a bad place to be.

    Cover is good...getting trapped behind cover, losing sight of the enemy, getting flanked or out maneuvered effectively negates the use of cover.
     
  21. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    Proved by Mr. Wilson earlier that day...
     
  22. Dmack_901

    Dmack_901 Member

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    Or, AP handguns save lives.
     
  23. XavierBreath

    XavierBreath Member

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    Very well said sir!
    The entire post.
     
  24. YellowLab

    YellowLab member

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    I COMPLETELY agree that you can do it 'by the book' and still lose.

    And the video that I saw did not show anything about the citizen.

    I DO commend the fact that he had the presence of mind to defend himiself... and not freeze up when the lead started to fly.

    I DO NOT commend the LEO actions. One post mentioned that the video made the police look like bafoons... no, the video captured the LEO's making so many bad decisions that they looked like bafoons.

    Someone please tell the LEOs that they are not trained or equipped to take on an armed/armoured aggressor. I know its not as manly to tell stories about how you GOT THE F OUT OF THERE, but since the LA Bank hold up incndent (so similiar its not funny) it seems that NOTHING has been learned or changed to correct the deficiences.
     
  25. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Actually, as I hear things he was a bystander (lived nearby and saw it starting) and dove in to help.
     
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