Courthouse shooting video

Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m no expert on tactical encounters. However, I did notice that there were other cars (a patrol cruiser, and a white pickup) in the general direction of the perpetrator. The police officer fires multiple shots at his intended target. Does this endanger occupants of the other cars? Why didn’t the officer with the rifle attempt to disable the perps truck? How do departments train for such encounters?

I think it would be very interesting to hear an opinion of a peace officer.
 
I DO NOT commend the LEO actions. One post mentioned that the video made the police look like bafoons... no, the video captured the LEO's making so many bad decisions that they looked like bafoons.

Yellowlab,
Talk is cheap, those "Bafoons" had seconds to make decisions, you've had 24 hours, and the best you've come up with is........nothing.

Situation: They're outgunned by a madman that's trying to murder them.
Solution 1: Find cover, maintain a low profile, and hope that the madman that's trying to murder them, doesn't continue to try to murder them. Afterall the shooter was there only to murder his wife and son, the assault rifle, body armor, and extra ammo, wasn't for killing anyone else that he could find.
Solution 2: Call in the SWAT team that can take an hour to muster, assemble and deploy, and call for a sixty minute intermission with the madman.

Situation: Officers don't have the tools to combat armored madman.
Solution: Get in a time machine or engage in alchemy to procure appropiate tools, or give up and hope they don't get murdered.

Situation: Officer shouldn't be on hood of car.
Solution: Officer shouldn't be on hood of car.

As far as the "bafoons" at the entrance of the court house, all six of them, their mission is to protect the court house. They were in defensible position, they held the shooter at bay, they accomplished their mission. Real bafoons there, what were they thinking?:rolleyes: Those guys should have taken cover, after all the chap was just there to murder his wife and son, with an rifle, body armor, and extra ammo.

The officer on the hood of the car should have been on the trunk. What he would have lost in situational awareness, would have more than made up by increased crash protection, protection from the vehicle, and increased maneuverability.
 
I’m no expert on tactical encounters. However, I did notice that there were other cars (a patrol cruiser, and a white pickup) in the general direction of the perpetrator. The police officer fires multiple shots at his intended target. Does this endanger occupants of the other cars? Why didn’t the officer with the rifle attempt to disable the perps truck? How do departments train for such encounters?

I think it would be very interesting to hear an opinion of a peace officer.

I was looking at that, too. The closeup of the pickup implies that the pickup was in the background when Sgt. Jacks made the killshot. If you look carefully, though (I ran it back several times), the shot enters from the right passenger side rear window at a high angle before traversing the cab of the truck to kill the bad guy. The video is a compendium of several dash cameras at that point, and I believe that the dash camera catching the kill shot there was in a patrol car situated much, much further to the left of the police marksman. Another dash cam on a patrol car further to the right records Sgt. Jacks firing. It's easy to perceive it all as being from the same camera, which would put the truck in the line of fire. I suspect that the Sergeant had a good clear field of fire, with the truck off to his right, which would explain why he ran 'way over to the far right like he did-- hardly a perfect firing angle, but the safest for bystanders.

Note that Sgt. Jacks didn't shoot from behind a patrol car, which would have provided some cover and a shooting rest. Any trained rifleman will attempt to make use of support whenever possible, and anyone under fire would seek out cover whenever possible. But Sgt. Jack stands on his hind legs, out in the open, to make his shot from a sub-optimal angle? Why?

Because he was taking into account the lives of the citizens beyond the bad guy.


With regard to disabling the vehicle-- it's easier said than done. Trying to do so to a moving vehicle in an urban environment endangers lots of people, inasmuch as you may be shooting at a moving vehicle. A pickup on the straightaway is a hard vehicle to disable for a patrol car. The deputy did a decent job, I thought, and intelligently got out of the way when the guy jumped out.

Shooting tires, in my professional experience, is pretty unrewarding. .45 acp bullets put holes of only the size of the meplat or hollowpoint into the sidewalls of the tires. .223's would likely put pinpricks into them. Now, at high speeds, it's more efficient at shredding them. But at low speeds, you find yourself wondering why the tire isn't deflating or blowing up like it does in the movies.

Similarly, the gas tank, which is mighty hard to hit on most pickups, would simply create a slow and inefficient leak-- they just don't blow up like in the movies. (Not even with tracer ammo, surprisingly.)


Was riding around on the hood the BEST way to respond? Probably not. But I suspect that the officer thought that the pickup was just around the corner, and that as soon as he made it, he'd slide off and engage, without being constrained in the car. Probably better would have been to sit on the open windowsill, if there wasn't an MDT blocking his ability to hook his feet under the dashboard on the passenger side. Still, getting out and moving would have been difficult.

To the detractors of the cops who ran to the sound of rifle fire, I question how you would have dealt with the situation. These officers engaged the shooter because it was their duty. While I agree 100% that every one of those officers on the scene should have had a rifle and a shotgun in their vehicles, many PDs haven't yet realized that a rifle is a far safer way to engage a shooter than a pistol, for the citizenry at large. Most street officers know this, and many admin types know this, but they oftentimes have to get their SOP approved through city council types, who don't know this, and who are terrified of the "militarization of the police." Heck, give 'em all M-94s. Give 'em Remington 7400's. Give 'em 870's with good sights, slings, and slugs.

Give 'em what they need to stop the fight.

Give 'em support.
 
Last edited:
Ahh, the power of the internet. Where people who have never done anything dangerous in their lives can question and condemn people who fought through actual gunfights.

Oh my gosh! You mean the cops didn't do everything PERFECT in the few seconds of terror that they actually had to decide and committ to a course of action?

I'm positive that the average poster on THR could have done so much better.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
Getting back on track, I thought the video quite poor. It portrayed the cops as inept hero baffoons, which they were not...with the possible exception of the SWAT officer and his Colt "Command" AR15 made for precision shooting that is actually a Colt "Commando" AR15 with an 11.5" barrel that is hardly a precision AR15.
There were tons of errors in the reporting (as you'd expect). Not only the Colt "Command." They also say the suspect was firing an "AK-47 assault rifle" and refer to "automatic weapons fire strafing the courthouse." I seem to remember that it was, in fact, a semi-auto SKS. I guess "full-auto AK-47 assault rifle" sounds more salacious to the newsman types.

Double Naught Spy said:
It sucks the vid left out the part about Mark Wilson. That just isn't right.
That was a real shocker. Wilson sees a man on a shooting spree, grabs his 1911, and runs in to help the innocent victims. But he's outgunned. He loses his life after a valiant struggle. Not many people would have done the same. This man is a hero. Yet, the (bumbling?) SWAT officer and cowardly TV cameraman are portrayed as the heros. We don't even get a mention of Wilson's supreme sacrifice. To add insult to injury, I remember reading that the police on the scene credited Wilson with saving Arroyo's son. So it looks like even the police recognized how important he was.

I suppose the newsmedia aren't interested in telling the tale of a responsible, civic-minded, well-trained, armed citizen who selflessly risks his own life to save a child from his homicidal father :fire:
 
Last edited:
Screen captures

Regarding shooting angles: Note this shot of Sgt. Jacks moving forward from the right-most cruiser's dashcam:
attachment.php


Then notice the location of the impacts of these last two shots by Sgt Jacks:
attachment.php

attachment.php


I got these screen captures while watching the slightly superior video hosted here: http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/35766/Gun_Fight_Outside_The_Court_House.html
 

Attachments

  • Arroyo shooting by Sgt Jacks in Tyler.jpg
    Arroyo shooting by Sgt Jacks in Tyler.jpg
    30.1 KB · Views: 170
  • Arroyo shooting back window one.jpg
    Arroyo shooting back window one.jpg
    22.7 KB · Views: 167
  • Arroyo shooting back window two.jpg
    Arroyo shooting back window two.jpg
    16.9 KB · Views: 168
Mark Wilson wasn't your everday pistol totin' wannabe either. Had a bit of training, obviously, and ran an indoor shooting range there in Tyler, on the Loop.
 
I hate to say this but...

Those LEO's are in serious need of range time, that many guns throwing that much lead and no one hits him, when under pressure only reflexive shooting works, and that takes practice.:what:
 
Thoughts

Just some thoughts...

1. All victims were disarmed. Everyone was hoping SOMEONE would do something.

2. When I was a kid growing up in West Texas, most pick-em-up trucks could be seen with rifles and/or shotguns in their rear windows. You rarely see that today, even in Texas. Does anyone remember Charles Whitman and the Univ. of Texas tower? Local good folks grabbed their rifles and engaged the bad guy. By the way, this is how the good folks of Coffeyville Kansas defended themselves against the Dalton gang also...and beat them.

3. I commend the cops for moving toward the bad guy and engaging him, but none (that I saw on the video) attempted to use cover. It would occur to me to find cover and engage the bad guy from there.

4. I remember seing a news story a few years ago about a county sheriff's deputy who had a HUGE area to cover in Alaska. He got a call to BOLO for a truck and several occupants who are suspects in a bank robery. A few minutes later that very truck passed him on the highway. He turned and got after them. He held them at gunpoint in somewhat of a "meskin standoff". Finally a vehicle approached. The deputy waved the vehicle down and asked it the occupant had a weapon with him. The citizen replied, "Of course I do..."
The officer then had the citizen help him cover the suspects while he arrested them.

5. A proposal before the committee:

Whereas, there will be bad guys in our society always,

And whereas, the bad guys will always find ways of acquiring weapons,

And whereas, there will always be many more good citizens in society than bad guys,

Be it resolved that all good citizens should acquire arms and be well trained in their use, and be willing in a moment's notice to use them in defense against common thuggery and lawlessness, and be on notice from this day forward that is THEIR responsibility to render society safe and peaceful.

All in favor, say AYE!
 
The video is well done, but I find it disgusting that Mr. Wilson is not even mentioned.

He was not a target and yet he chose to enter the situation and by his actions and at the cost of his own life, he saved lives and most likely provided the motivation which caused the shooter to leave the scene. Seems like that's worth at least a mention.

Anybody know how to figure out who made the video? I have something to say to them.
 
All I can say is WOW.

For anyone that's read my posts or remembers my posts around here, they'll know that I'm the first one to criticize, scrutinize, question, and argue against the police and their tactics...

That being said, there is absolutely ZERO blame, complaint, condemnation or anything negative to say about any part of the police response in this situation whatsoever.

The police did the best they could in a situation that, obviously, a large number of THR members seem to have serious difficulty understanding and putting all the aspects of this dangerous, high-speed, high-stress situation in perspective.


I'm not even going to debate all the various points and details involved. It should be a given.

+1 to the cops, and Wilson.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top