Cowboy Ammo Good For Self/Home Defense ?

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There has got to be an answer to this riddle. Letts explore things a bit using extremes. Let's assume a 10,000 grain weight concrete block hits a person at 50fps. That is going to bruise, potentially break bones, and potentially cause a serious head injury. On the other extreme we have a microscopic bit of matter travelling at uberspeed...which we do have in reality in the form of beta particles (I think that's the right term) which basically do no harm.

So at the extremes we have massive and slow doing very little, and we have tiny and quick doing very little. So realistically we are now looking for the miniscule point in the middle that provides the best of both worlds and does the most damage. With most defense bullets being 200 gr or less it's pretty safe to say we need as much velocity as we can get. Cowboy loads are not ideal.
 
19-3Ben said:
Do we actually know that? Or is that something we want to believe is true?

What I mean is, yes plain ole' lead slugs killed people, but do we know how quickly they incapacitated? That is, after all the goal. Whether the guy ends up dying of his wound is not pertinent to the conversation.

Skill and shot placement are absolutely #1. I would rather hit an attacker in the aorta with a FMJ than gut-shot with a JHP. BUT why in the world would you not give yourself the best chance possible? If you have the skill to hit what you are aiming at, give yourself the advantage of a good, modern JHP. It may not make a difference, but for the possibility that it just MIGHT make a difference, thats worth buying a $25 box of ammo, at least to me.
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Ben,

We do know that after the Moro uprising in the Philippines that the .38 Colt didn't work yet they found the .45 SAA did work on hopped up Moro warriors. Hence the 1911 and the .45 ACP (which mimicked the .45 Colt Army load of 230 gr at 800 or so.)

Later such people as Massad Ayoob, David Spauling, and Evan Marshal collected quite a bit of data on police shootings.

Over the years they found that:

a) no hand held firearm was 100 percent,
b) larger more powerful guns tended to stop better,
c) JHP type ammunition tended to stop better,
d) speeds needed to cause more than permanent size damage cavities have to be around twice the speed of sound (2200 fps or so),
e) shot placement meant alot as for stopping power and was more important than the power or bullet makeup of what was used.

Modern JHP design do not expand at the moment of impact. It takes several inches to make the bullet expand. Larger blunt shaped bullets can actually have about the same crush cavity, over all, as smaller JHPs do.

The smaller high speed projectiles have more temporary cavities, but not stretch cavities.

And that is why having a large bore pistol is not at all a bad idea if you use blunter lead bullets. It's only the smaller cartridges that need help in that area, hence JHPs.

And as for velocity, you can jack it up but if the bullet exits the target then any velocity left in that bullet is wasted. Velocity in handguns does not mean all that much till you hit about 2000 fps.

Sure I'll still pack my Glock 26 9mm with Winchester +p+, but if I decided to pack my Colt 1911 .45 Commander or S&W .44 Special, then a large SWC shaped bullet would be fine with me.

Deaf
 
but explain this,

if i have a bullet say a 125 grain jhp in 38 special, that needs to reach 980 fps to expand, but when fired from a snubnose only reaches 780,

why is that soooo much better then a 158 grain bullet moving at 780 from the same handgun/
 
Bezoar said:
but explain this,

if i have a bullet say a 125 grain jhp in 38 special, that needs to reach 980 fps to expand, but when fired from a snubnose only reaches 780,

why is that soooo much better then a 158 grain bullet moving at 780 from the same handgun/
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I can't explain why you would choose a 125gr bullet going too slow to expand in the 1st place and I doubt anyone here would say it's better. Go with the Speer 135g +P short barrel Gold Dot load instead that will expand at snub velocities.

Deaf Smith is right about bullets with flatter meplats like the WC and semi WC, they do create larger permanent wound cavities than FMJ and are a much better choice than FMJ. I'd still take a well-designed modern HP over them anytime though in the same caliber. Sure, a .45 dia. SWC might be better than a .38 dia. HP, but a .45 dia. HP should be better than the .45 dia. SWC. The HP has a blunt end also even if it doesn't expand.

Comparing wound dynamics of a large dia. SWC vs. a smaller dia. HP is not a valid comparison especially as the OP is about the effectiveness of a cowboy load in a given caliber.
 
think about it this way. criminals are all cowards. most often, when the shooting starts, bad guys exit post haste. however, if said bad guy does a b&e on some who can actually shoot...they exit leaking or by ambulance.

just my two cents.
 
strambo said:
I can't explain why you would choose a 125gr bullet going too slow to expand in the 1st place and I doubt anyone here would say it's better. Go with the Speer 135g +P short barrel Gold Dot load instead that will expand at snub velocities.
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May I suggest instead the Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWHP 'non-plus-p" at 850 from a 2 inch snub and it expands.

There you have a HP and a SWC!

Even my 2 inch Colt Dick Special can shoot that one fine as well as my S&W 640 in .38 Spl.

But about .45 and JHPs, I think by the time you get near 1/2 inch and the lower velocities then a simple SWC is the way to go.
Especially if you practice alot with a reload that duplicates the design. Like I said, shot placement (and that takes skill) is more important than the slug used or velocity achieved or gun platform used.

Keep in mind folks you have to CONTROL the beast to. Stick to much power and it's harder to shoot strait and fast, especially one handed.

Deaf
 
BP Conversion Revolvers

I was considering buying a steel framed BP revolver, then converting it via a smokeless/cowboy ammo cylinder, or buying a conversion revolver that had been manufactured as converted.

Which way do you think is best ?:confused:
 
BUY the conversion premade from the manufacturer. you can save LOTS of money and time that way.

the typical conversion cylinder costs as much as the gun did. and add in a gunsmith to make sure it actually going to work for you, and you can often be able to buy a matched pair of k frames.
 
the typical conversion cylinder costs as much as the gun did. and add in a gunsmith to make sure it actually going to work for you, and you can often be able to buy a matched pair of k frames.
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Do you speak from experience? I have two conversion cylinder equipped 1858 Remingtons. Neither one needed the services of a gunsmith. If you go with the Taylor's R&D 45 Colt cylinder, 90% of the time they drop right in with no smithing needed at all.

Of course, it is cheaper in the long run to buy the premade conversion from the factory. I have a pard who has two of the Uberti 1858 conversions. He likes them, but he prefers his 1870 Remingtons. I fired his conversions once this year. They are a bit different than a conventional single action and take a little bit of getting used to.

http://www.uberti.com/new-army-conversion-revolver

For me it was an easy decision to go with conversion cylinders for my C&B guns. I bought my old EuroArms Remmie almost 40 years ago, it had long since paid for itself, so $200 (the going rate then) for a cylinder was a no brainer. My other Remmie, an Uberti that I bought a few years ago, came with the conversion cylinder for a very good price, less than a new gun. Another no-brainer. I have never even fired its C&B cylinder.
 
I don't know...I mean, I wouldn't face down Bill Hickock and his .36 caliber Navy Colts shooting round ball, personally. It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian.

On the subject of conversion cylinders, have a Howell in .45ACP for my 5.5" Pietta Remmy. It shoots great with a 200 grain cast SWC over 5.0 grains Bullseye which pushes about 900 fps. Hasn't missed a beat. It's hanging in its holster on my bed post loaded. I used to keep it loaded with RB in the cap and ball cylinder, but since I got the conversion, I figured I'd use it. :D

Yeah, the gun was on sale for $179, the conversion cylinder was $230. So sue me, I wanted it. i already have a M10 and 25 other handguns many of which are revolvers.
 
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Far as the CAS .38Spl goes It's NOT a light load!
Remington standard Factory RNL Factory loaded bullets claim 29fp energy,
WInchester CAS .38SPL RNLFP Factory loads claim 250FP of energy.
I shoot both from my 4 5/8" Vaquero and honestly can't feel any difference in recoil between the two but if I am to believe factory claims, the Winchester is a better S/D load! I also regularly shoot both in my Model 10HB and my Model 36 with the same result.
Muzzle energy is what it is and a guy would be crazy to not use the most powerfull load available. Actually my SD load is the Horniday XTP Factory load, but just using what you might have on hand, the WInchester appears to be the Hottie!
In different calibers this is probably different.
I'd love to have some pipsqueak loads for my 38 derringer for plinking!
I love digging thru the factory quotes about my calibers! You learn an awfull lot.
ZVP
 
I have never shot in a Cowboy event but I think they also use shotguns. Is there a cowboy load for a shotgun? If so I think I would vote for it.
 
There seems to be some misconception about the ammo in question. It is not meant to duplicate 1880's blackpowder loads. It is intended for cowboy action shooting and as such, is loaded to even lower pressures than SAAMI standards. As has been mentioned, the .45Colt loads are running a full 150-250fps under blackpowder velocities.

Yes, these loads can be very effective but the standard loads are going to be better.

Fact is, cast and swaged bullets work and work well. They also work more consistently than jacketed bullets. So you're deluding yourself if you're thinking that "modern" jacketed bullets are light years ahead of a good lead bullet. They only offer a slight advantage, IF they work exactly as designed. Forget the crap about "wasted energy" if the bullet exits.
 
There seems to be some misconception about the ammo in question. It is not meant to duplicate 1880's blackpowder loads. It is intended for cowboy action shooting and as such, is loaded to even lower pressures than SAAMI standards. As has been mentioned, the .45Colt loads are running a full 150-250fps under blackpowder velocities.

Yes, these loads can be very effective but the standard loads are going to be better.
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Exactly what I have been trying to say. Folks keep referring to how effective the old Black Powder loads were, and I agree, my Black Powder 45 Colt loads would probably drop a horse. But that is not what is commercially loaded under the label 'Cowboy Loads'. As I said earlier, cowboy loads are specifically loaded so as to develop less recoil than standard SAAMI spec loads. They have been loaded this way so that a single action revolver can be fired rapidly with two hands without recoil disturbing the sight picture.

No, I would not volunteer to stand in front of a commercial Cowboy load, but if you want something for self defense there are better choices on the market.
 
The always embedded put downs undermine the usefulness of what you offer.
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Everything is a putdown to you. An accusation you make to deflect from the actual discussion.

delusional - having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions

That's not an insult.

The impression seems to be that modern loads strike like the Hammer of Thor, while 100yrs ago bullets just bounced off people. The fact that strambo thinks a .45cal lead bullet makes a .45cal hole is proof of this. Fact is, by studying history, ballistics and actually shooting critters with these loads, they work and work very well. The swaged bullets and round balls of old expanded and made a nasty mess of things. If you've ever hunted with roundball, you'd know this. So an expanding bullet or ball is not going to make a .45cal hole. Far from it. Likewise, a good cast bullet with a wide flat nose (meplat) is not going to make a .45cal hole. It is going to produce a wide wound channel and usually exit. Those who actually hunt with handguns and cast bullets understand this. Those who do not, only guess. So yes, it is my opinion that if you believe that modern jacketed bullets are light years ahead of good ole lead, you're are deluded.
 
Some of that is advertising hype.

Developed specifically for Cowboy Action Shooting enthusiasts, Magtech Cowboy Action pistol ammunition features flat nose lead bullets that are designed and manufactured to assure accuracy and knockdown power for steel plate competition. These authentic Old West loads use only the highest quality components and are manufactured to the same exacting standards as the rest of the Magtech Ammunition line. Other recommended uses include target shooting and plinking.Magtech Cowboy Action rounds are loaded using specifications written by the Single Action Shooting Society (SASS). This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, in boxer primed, reloadable brass cases.
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With all due respect, round nose flat point bullets are used in CAS so the point of one bullet does not fire the primer in front of it in the tubular magazine of a pump or lever rifle. Nothing at all to do with accuracy or knocking down steel plates. We very seldom have to knock down a steel plate with our revolvers, all we have to do is hit them. With the infrequent knock down, any bullet will knock it down, it has nothing to do with the bullet shape, it has to do with how hard the bullet hits it. And I can tell you for a fact that some CAS shooters switch to heavier loads when they encounter the rare pistol knock down.

As far as the SASS specifications, as I said at the outset of this post, velocity must be less than 1000 fps from a revolver and less than 1400 fps from a rifle. Power factor must be no less than 60. Most Cowboy Ammo is loaded way, way under those specifications.
 
Is your concern that Flat Point isn't required for steel plate,
or that 250gr/FlatPoint/760fps isn't going to be a useful
self-defense round?

Since MagTech's what I have socked away for the Vaquero,
I may have already chronographed it.

`Will check records for MagTech velocity hype.
Then I'll load 40gr 3Fg behind a 255gr Lyman 454190 and chronograph that.
(I think the hype's on the BP performance figures)


.
 
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I'm sure it would suffice for self defense.
However, why would you not use a load designed specifically for that purpose? There are a ton of options out there for SD ammunition.

I just don't get the logic.

Well they filled a lot of graveyards during the Civil War and the expansion of the American West.
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And cause it DID work in the 'Wild West'.
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In the 'Wild West' they used a 250 grain bullet and a case full of black powder. It pushed the bullet at around 1,000 fps. It wasn't a light mouse fart loads back then.

Colt Dragoons took 35-40 grains of blackpowder.

They were more powerful than what most of the cowboy action shooters shoot. I have observed cowboy action matches at my range several times and there is very little recoil when they're shooting. It's almost non existant.
 
Is your concern that Flat Point isn't required for steel plate,
or that 250gr/FlatPoint/760fps isn't going to be a useful
self-defense round?

Since MagTech's what I have socked away for the Vaquero,
I may have already chronographed it.

`Will check records for MagTech velocity hype.
Then I'll load 40gr 3Fg behind a 255gr Lyman 454190 and chronograph that.
(I think the hype's on the BP performance figures)
Click to expand...

My concern? Heck I ain't concerned. I just wanted to point out that there is advertising hype in what you read. They are in error when they describe the purpose of a flat point bullet in CAS. Yes, I'm sure a 250 grain bullet moving at 760 fps would be very deadly.

By the way, have you ever tried stuffing 40 grains of FFFg under a 255 grain bullet in modern 45 Colt cases? You're going to need a compression die to do it because modern solid head cases have less case capacity than the old Balloon Head cases. My loads, depending on the brand of powder I use, only have about 35 grains of FFg under a 250 grain bullet. That's all the powder that will fit into a modern case without using a compression die to compress it enough to seat the bullet. I don't bother with the compression die, 35 grains is plenty, it smokes like crazy and kicks plenty in a Colt.

I did chronograph my loads a bunch of years ago. They were doing right about 700 fps out of a 7 1/2" barrel.


In the 'Wild West' they used a 250 grain bullet and a case full of black powder. It pushed the bullet at around 1,000 fps. It wasn't a light mouse fart loads back then.

Colt Dragoons took 35-40 grains of blackpowder.

They were more powerful than what most of the cowboy action shooters shoot. I have observed cowboy action matches at my range several times and there is very little recoil when they're shooting. It's almost non existant.
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There were actually two loads for the 45 Colt. The military load only had 30 grains of powder. The rest of the case was filled with cardboard wadding. The commercial loads had about 40 grains of powder in them. I don't have any data for 40 grains of powder under a 250 grain bullet, but I suspect 1000 fps is a bit on the high side.


45ColtBenetPrimedBox02_zps0e1df06e.jpg

In all fairness, if you saw almost no recoil, I suspect the guys you saw were shooting 38 Special handloads loaded way below the standards of the commercial Cowboy Ammo manufactures. I shoot with those guys all the time. 38 Special, not 45 Colt, is the most popular cartridge used in CAS. Sometimes with earplugs in I can't tell if the bullet left the barrel or not, the report is so light. But those are guys who are loading way down below the minimum loads stated in all the loading manuals. Sometimes the loads are so light the bullet does not make it out of the barrel. Not the same as what the commercial manufacturers are offering.
 
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the standard cowboy loads kick the crap out of your favorite 22lr or 25acp or your favorite 32aco or 380 acp when it comes to down what matters,

putting a hole in something, and going deep with that hole.
 
In all fairness, if you saw almost no recoil, I suspect the guys you saw were shooting 38 Special handloads loaded way below the standards of the commercial Cowboy Ammo manufactures.
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I don't doubt that at all. I scrounge lead and have looked under the steel plates and the little disks of lead that accumulate there are a lot smaller than a .45 would be.

And I don't dout that a 700ish fps load would suffice for SD. I'm sure it would do the job.
 
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