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Crazy ATF visit.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by 12 Volt Man, Sep 6, 2006.

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  1. stevelyn

    stevelyn Member

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    It would appear that BATFEces':barf: people skills are improving.

    At at least no one's cat got stomped to death and the house wasn't burning when they left.:rolleyes:
     
  2. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    And not only that, but the ATF has to deal with people doing legal things (like making 80% receivers) that the ATF doesn't like :p
     
  3. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    To everyone saying the agents should have been polite please bear in mind we are not talking about a traffic stop or a routine interview. They believed (wrongly, and that's a legitimate issue to discuss) that they were going to meet a dangerous criminal at the door. Thinking a dangerous criminal is going to answer the door do you stand there with your hat in your hand and be polite or do you assume a more defensive posture and demeanor since you may be in a gunfight when the door opens?

    Sorry, but I can't blame cops for protecting themselves and I fully understand if under stressful situations they are less than "Miss Manners."

    This was a foul up on information. That should not happen but it does. Nobody got hurt, the agents acted properly in my opinion.

    SomeKid, I don't what "OpSen" means and please don't call me Pig. That's somewhat insulting. Saxon, SaxonPig, or SP is fine.
     
  4. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Yeah ... like somebody that put a pistol grip on a foreign made semi-auto rifle with only nine USA made parts ... :rolleyes:
     
  5. Desk Jockey

    Desk Jockey Member

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    "I've always felt the nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help."

    - Ronald Reagan, August 12, 1986
     
  6. No_Brakes23

    No_Brakes23 Member

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    Fedaykincmndr, if you just got out of the Corps, perhaps you remember a little thing we call professionalism. Now I expect a certain amount of mental sloppiness from some LEOs, but not from a devil dog. Saying "It's hard" is a cop-out. Yes, it's hard, and yet it's still on you to act like a professional.

    If you think back to MCRD, OCS or TBS, (Dunno if you were enlisted or commisioned,) I am certain you can recall a time when you were seething with anger and yet had to control your emotions to convey placid professionalism. You can do it. Yes it's hard, that's why not everyone can do it. If you can't keep your game face on while acting professional, perhaps another line of work would suit you better.



    For anyone else making the "It's their job," comments, you are really baiting the Godwinesque JBT/Gestapo comments with lines like that. There's a big difference between sloppy policework/lack of professional demeanor and dragging people off to camps based on their ethnicity, but the justification is just as pathetic.
     
  7. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Here's a thought: If you're carrying a loaded gun, you can AFFORD to be polite. It might even LESSEN the chance of conflict, even with an actual criminal.

    See if you can wrap your mind around this:

    If you come to the wrong house and you're polite to me, I'll just correct your misapprehensions and politely send you on your way.

    If you come to the wrong house and are rude and threatening to me, I will do EVERYTHING humanly possible within the law to negatively impact your law enforcement career and to cause you as much legally sanctioned sheer misery as is literally possible. I will call and write your entire chain of command. I will write my congressman and senators. I will write letters to the editor. I will make sure that Bill O'Reilly and Nancy Grace know you by name. If I can in fact identify you, I will devote a web page to you, inviting others to contribute tales of your churlishness, stupidity and lack of professionalism.

    Now, you tell me which you'd prefer...
     
  8. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    More immediately (and maybe even more importantly) I'm not going to help you one iota with your investigation, whereas if you're polite to me I'll be as helpful as I can.
     
  9. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    You have to be careful not to obstruct justice. Never lie.

    Of course one word answers and not volunteering information not explicitly requested isn't obstruction of justice. Neither is refusing to talk without the presence of one's attorney.
     
  10. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

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    Dean,

    I would bet it is also legal to answer every question with an upturned middle finger and no response at all. If people come to my door, and are rude, that is all they get, if I am in a good mood.

    SP, your preference has been noted. OpSen was shorthand for another poster to whom I was also replying to.
     
  11. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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  12. HankB

    HankB Member

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    As I wrote earlier, LEOs who've come to my door have never been rude to me - and I responded to basic common courtesy with basic common courtesy.

    If they were rude or obnoxious - and they didn't present me with a valid warrant - I wouldn't cuss them out, gesture obscenely, or anything else of that nature.

    I'd simply say "This conversation is over. Please leave my property now."

    And I'd shut the door.
     
  13. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    Deanimator- Sure, once the mistake has been recognized then they should be on their best behavior and apologies all around are in order for the screw up. But until they determine that they do not have the person they are seeking I can appreciate their attitude and posture. I don't begrudge them for wanting to protect themselves.

    As for copping an attitude with LEOs and refusing to help them because they hurt your feelings, well, I hope that your refusal to assist law enforcement doesn't cause an innocent person to suffer. I guess I'm just not that thin skinned.

    Again, nobody was hurt. What's the big deal?
     
  14. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    How does rudeness and a lack of professionalism "protect" anyone?

    As for cooperation, I have recommended the level of cooperation REQUIRED by the law. I have also recommended that people NOT speak AT ALL, without benefit of legal counsel, ESPECIALLY in instances where law enforcement personnel act in improper and unprofessional ways.

    If a law enforcement officer acts in a rude and demeaning manner, why on earth should I do ANYTHING that could jeopardize my own freedom and well-being? If somebody doesn't respect simple common decency, why should I assume that they'll respect the law? This may come as a shock to you, but malicious behavior is often a sign of malicious intent.
     
  15. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    The big deal is that when agents of the government make it part of their day to day methodology to treat their fellow citizens as LESS than they are, they begin to believe their fellow citizens ARE less than them.

    Makes it easier for them to stomp our kittens, shoot our dogs/sons/wives, burn our houses to the ground and hunt us down with MP5s.

    I'm not saying the rudeness will always lead there or that its a short trip from rudeness to outright butchery, but it would be much harder for them to do those bad things to people they see as fellow citizens and worthwhile human beings.
     
  16. tanksoldier

    tanksoldier Member

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    With a warrant and local PD for backup. Sounds to me like they were playing cowboy.


    Again, if they felt that was likely where was their search warrant, where was their local PD backup?

     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2006
  17. badge4436

    badge4436 Member

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    Sounds like some laziness on the part of ATF. Maybe felt rushed?

    Hard to tell what really happened at that front door. Too bad ATF didn't have a digital recorder going--which is pretty much standard at the PD where I work now. Saves a lot of time on a lot of "beefs." You gotta be smoother these days than when I first started. I learned to be an actor. The best cops are great actors. I have seen persons who started out irate and extremely defensive end up smiling and relaxed and thanking me. Its all in how things are explained. Mistakes will happen. This one was really nothing on the LEO Richter Scale. In my experience an explanation and taking the time to listen to them vent usually does the trick and saves the "beef." Record the contact as insurance.
     
  18. CornCod

    CornCod Member

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    I have spent a total of 19 years working for various government agrencies, both law enforcement and non-law enforcement. I have found that there is never a good excuse to be rude to people. Its just a lousy investigative strategy. Some people may think its hard to be polite to child molesters, prostitutes, drug addicts, thieves and child beaters. I have found that it not only assists you in getting the job done, but actually helps your own mental health. Imagine the burden of having to be unpleasant and nasty all day. A few years of induced nastiness and an ATF guy might be tempted to "eat his revolver" as the old NYPD expression goes.
     
  19. tuckerdog1

    tuckerdog1 Member

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    When I was but a young lad, our family was on vacation when...some prankster called the police & claimed to be commiting suicide at our address. So the police arrive, and of course, no answer at the door, because we're gone on vacation. They smash in the front door ( I mean destroy it ) and go inside to look for a potential suicide. Nobody there. Don't fault them for busting in. But they did not secure the house when they left. When we got home, we're greeted by a front entry that looked like a car had been driven through it. A little note was taped to the door frame that said to contact Sgt Whoever about the door. They had left our home open to to whoever might wander by for over a week. But oddly enough, nobody ripped us off.

    Tuckerdog1
     
  20. Sheldon J

    Sheldon J Member

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    I like the call 911 reply

    and say there are men at your door with guns.:what: How did she know they were not some deranged look alike wanting to rob, rape, N kill her? :confused: That would have gotten their attention, :uhoh: as to the rude you should state in a plain calm voice "I am no criminal, I am cooperating with you, and am treating you like a human I expect you to reciprocate" :evil:
     
  21. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    That's an EXCELLENT plan when dealing with the BATFE. The more unimpeachable witnesses to their actions, the better, especially if you have confidence that your local PD is on the up and up.

    The BATFE has SUCH a record of perjury in court that you can't say "Brady" (and not Sarah either) without them coming to mind. When dealing with an agency which made an OFFICIAL videotape of how to commit perjury about the NFA record keeping system, the more witnesses the better.
     
  22. No_Brakes23

    No_Brakes23 Member

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    Right, because F-Troop is out there saving us from shoelace machine-guns and separatists who cut their scatterguns a tad too short. I love the smell of burning house in the morning...it smells like safety.:barf:
     
  23. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    This statement is no less simplistic than the one it was in response to. The ATF might very well make its trade enforcing idiotic laws (much like the IRS) but many of they people they end up putting in jail are actual dangerous criminals that should be in jail. They also nail their share of hobbyists which means they arent the "good guys", but they arent automatically the "bad guys" either. The fact is that there arent good guys or bad guys.
     
  24. No_Brakes23

    No_Brakes23 Member

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    True, but anything worthwhile they do could be done by some other LEA. They are extraneous and as such, invent crimes and criminals. I got no problem helping out with real criminal investigations, but I have no desire to help them with some witchhunt.
     
  25. hammer4nc

    hammer4nc Member

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    I think it goes far beyond the ATF merely enforcing idiotic laws. Take a look at the record. ATF has a long history of arbitrary decisions in the context of their rulemaking authority. Short list from memory: The current situation with gunsmiths (80% receivers; definition of "manufacturing"). What constitutes "demilled" items. Destructive devices and "the sporting exemption". Interstate commerce and machine guns. "Readily convertible". "Parts kits". "Domestic content". Commercial zoning for FFL's. Shoelace machine guns. We won't even talk here about ATF's most famous disasters. They are currently flooding prisons with illegal possession cases vis. "project safe neighborhoods", arguably an incredible waste of resources for paper infractions with no victim.

    One of our regular ATF apologists has a habit, in these ATF threads, of posting without comment dozens of links to the ATF propaganda website, showing how ATF has captured some dangerous hombres (and therefore should command our respect?).

    That's like posting stories about Pablo Escobar's charity work for the poor people of Columbia, to enhance his image.

    Indeed, ATF has truly earned their reputation.
     
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