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Crazy Idea--Gas with its own Oxidizer?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Cosmoline, Jan 3, 2006.

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  1. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    The propane bullet thread got me thinking. What if you had a canister filled with a gas that had its own gaseous oxidizer. You could then rig a firearm that would accept a screw-in canister of this magic gas, then load it with raw bullets like an airgun. With each pull of the trigger, gas would fill a chamber behind the bullet and be ignited by an electric spark. Since only gas was burning, there would be no crud buildup in the chamber. Of course, heat would need to be sunk away from the chamber, but a radiator system of some kind might do the trick.

    Is there such a gas, with the properties of smokeless powder?
     
  2. HighVelocity

    HighVelocity Member

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    Haven't you ever eaten at Taco Bell?


    Seriously though... It's an interesting idea. It'd be like a rocket powered spud gun.
     
  3. zahc

    zahc Member

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    maybe nitrous oxide+some flammable gas?
     
  4. forquidder

    forquidder Member

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    Gas Gun

    There are portable nail guns currently available which work on the same principle. You may not be able to obtain the same velocities as with smokeless powders.
     
  5. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    Liquid fuel firearms work on a similar basis. I've not yet heard of this being applied to small arms, but several countries, including the USA, South Africa, etc., are working on a liquid-fuel system for artillery. This would do away with the "zone charge" system, in that you could pump in just enough of the propellant to achieve the desired range. The now-cancelled Crusader artillery project used this system, IIRC.

    I don't think it would work as a gas, as the breech would have to be rather more complicated in terms of external lines, etc. Liquid can be pumped and stored under relatively low pressure. Gas would require significantly higher pressures. On the other hand, older air rifles used compressed air to power bullets up to about .40 caliber at close to 1,000 fps, so perhaps a compressed gas system might be feasible. One drawback, of course, would be the consequences if the gas tank was hit by a bullet (e.g. in military rifles, in a combat situation) - I guess this would take out both the weapon carrier and his buddies in one large explosion! Not good, that...
     
  6. mete

    mete Member

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    Ethylene oxide + air !!! It'll get them all !
     
  7. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    You'd want the oxidizer seperated from the fuel. If not you'd have a bomb not a gun. Sounds like more trouble than it would be worth though.
     
  8. NMshooter

    NMshooter Member

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    Here is something for you to research: Electro-Thermal Chemical guns.

    The Crusader 155mm self propelled howitzer was supposed to use this technology.

    Imagine .50 SLAP performance with .308 recoil...:evil:
     
  9. txgho1911

    txgho1911 Member

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    Acetylene and oxygen

    I once lit a torch in shop class from the other end of a pipe. I think every teacher on that side of the school showed up to see who blew up.
    Any flamable gas mixed to a clean porportion with oxygen will go bang. I can only imagine the thousands of combinations it would take to find the ones that compare to the powder burns.
    Compare might be the wrong word. A gas mix would detonate from a spark. Not burn.
     
  10. bogie

    bogie Member

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    What sort of pressure is found in an automotive engine?
     
  11. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    Why not skip the bullet all together and go with a shoulder fired chemical laser.
     
  12. EddieCoyle

    EddieCoyle Member

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  13. bogie

    bogie Member

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    If it is possible to get a decent pressure going, I'd guess that it'd be VERY easy to rig a fast-cycling round ball mechanism. Granted, you're not going to have great ballistics or accuracy, but for something to deny area to personnel, it could be very cool...

    ====
    You who choose to lead must follow
    But if you fall you fall alone
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home
     
  14. jlbraun

    jlbraun Member

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    The Army has experimented with using steam as a propellant. The idea was to load a canister of distilled water behind a projectile, then zap the water with a few million amps of electricity, flashing it to steam inside of a microsecond and firing the gun. It works really well - but how do you cart a million-amp generator around on the battlefield?
     
  15. VARifleman

    VARifleman Member

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    depends on the type. Gas would be somewhere between 9*14.7 psi and like 8*14.7 +27 psi (assuming approximately 8:1 compression with a 27 pound boost). For diesel it's in the 20s*14.7 psi.

    This is before ignition.
     
  16. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    It has been tried, many times, but no one has been able to find any gas or liquid propellant that has anywhere near the amount of energy per weight and volume as plain old smokeless powder, not to mention the convenience.

    A lot of people mention rockets, but a rocket is not really propelled by the gas like a bullet is. The gas builds up slowly and as it exits the back of the rocket, the rocket moves from the recoil, not because the gas "pushes" on anything. Odd as it seems, it was recoil that put men on the moon.

    Jim
     
  17. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Actually, after some of my personal experiences this doesn't surprise me :D With Buf Bore out of No.1 Ruger Bits of my shoulder wanted to go to the moon, or at least back to the parking lot.
     
  18. Taurus 66

    Taurus 66 Member

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  19. GregGry

    GregGry Member

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    I have 2 paslode cordless nail guns, one being a finish nailer, and the other being a framing nailer. The framing nailer can shoot a nail approx. 25 to 40 yards if its shot at an upward angle. If your within 6 to 10 feet, you could plink cans with it, not much more though :p.
    From the smell of the gas I would think its either propane, or possibly butane.

    The idea of gas fired arms is intriguing, however its not econmical. You can hold 14 rounds of .45acp in a hand held pistol, with basically everything you need in your hand (ammo is in the gun, pull trigger, gun fires). For 4$ you have 14 shots. With a gas system, it would be likely that you need a tank for both the fuel, and a tank of something like N20. A pistol that would normaly fit in your hand no stings attached, has become a pistol that fits in the hand, has strings attached, and you now have tanks you have to wear. I don't doubt that some explosive gas combined with n20 could shoot a bullet fast, but it would be to big, to dangerous, and to expensive.

    The future I see in arms technology, is in lazer type arms, and rail gun type arms. The biggest problem for both of thoes being lack of availible energy. Until we can design something that can hold megawatts of energy, yet fit in something the size of even a back pack, thoes two arm types will never exist on a portable scale.
     
  20. Rem700SD

    Rem700SD Member

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    Taurus,
    It looks like he's doing and endurance test of his airsoft.

    I'd have to say that the laws of physics are largely against any portable gas/liquid gun. I think the biggest obstacle is that the gas mixes detonate vs. powders with a controlled burn rate.
    I would like to see some developement of some more advanced ammunition though. Imagine a sealed, sabot round with a small liquid/gas capsule(think primer) in the base. It would use a piercing firing pin like that used in quartz lighters, and the whole cartridge would come out of the bbl. The propellant would be similar to a model rocket engine or a modern black powder charge, covered with a thin polymer. All would fit into a cylindrical, tapered-nose cartridge. I know the G-11 was a flop, but has anyone else thought of this yet?
     
  21. bogie

    bogie Member

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    What do you think it is _after_ ignition? I'd like any projectile thrower to be developing at least 10,000 PSI...
     
  22. bogie

    bogie Member

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    What I was envisioning would be a hopper-fed area-denial weapon... Sort of like a close-range minigun.

    If we can make a BB gun that'll kill a squirrel, why not up the projectile size to .25 or .32, and add more power via burning the "air" in the thing's chamber?
     
  23. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    The major problem is getting the "gas" to burn slow enough to get a decent pressure curve. The gas in the chamber would likely detonate or burn very quickly on firing while smokeless just burns in a controlled maner allowing higher velocity.
     
  24. Thefabulousfink

    Thefabulousfink Member

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    A little while back, my dad came up with an idea for a propellent system. Imagine an ink-jet printer, they can be set to inject a very specific amount of ink very quickly. Now place two of those jets in the chamber of a firearm and set them to inject the proper proportions of nitric acid and glycerol(sp) or any other two stage explosive. You could then adjust the amount of explosive loaded behind each shot by electronically adjusting the jets (I know, Smart gun - Batteries = Dumb papperweight). It would also be a viable form of caseless amunition.

    So, what do you think?
     
  25. bogie

    bogie Member

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    Okay - picture this... The receiver is similar to an auto's cylinder...

    Piston comes back, hole opens, ball is inserted, piston strokes forward, jamming ball in rifling.

    Piston comes back while valve injects fuel mix.

    Piston strokes forward, sparker fires, ball goes one direction, piston the other. Repeat.
     
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