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Criminals Robbing Houses, Posing As Police, What to DO?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by 4Freedom, Apr 21, 2009.

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  1. 4Freedom

    4Freedom member

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    I am not sure if Jeff misunderstood why I posted this originally, but it is for the same exact reason as HuntandFish stated. I have utmost respect and concern for the men/women wearing the badge. Actually, my main two concerns were:
    A. What if I don't shoot a criminal posing as a police, then he shoots me, due to me falling for his trick.
    B. What if I do shoot by mistake at a police officer, since many criminals these days are now posing as police officers and I had no idea it was a real police officer?

    You see, the last thing I ever want to do is shoot an innocent person. If I had my wife and children in the house and a bunch of guys with guns are trying to ram it down, you know that I will be fearful of the lives of my loved ones. Also, if it is the police I want to fully cooperate with them and make sure none of them or myself are harmed.

    My main concern in posting this is the techniques used by bad guys. Yes they are becoming more and more saavy. If anyone noticed the Mexican cartel that was busted recently, in the picture was many guns, grenades, RPGs, and SWAT and police like uniforms. Yes, the final item that was seized was of graver concern to me than even the weapons. These criminals see that they can gain the upperhand by posing as military or police personnel and it seems now in some areas that they perform rob

    This I think will be a major concern for citizens, but even more for law enforcement. I am just trying to see how these tactics by criminals can be prevented from escalating, since it seems they are. Seems, that tactics used by the mafia in the 20s, 30s and 40s and now being adopted by drug gangs in the modern day. Law enforcement people have a hard enough job, much more now they have to worry about people thinking they are fakes.

    That is what I am inquiring about..
     
  2. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    It must be pretty easy to contemplate as much as it comes up. How do I tell if the people kicking my door down are the police is right up there with 9mm v. .45, AR v. AK, shotgun or handgun for home defense....

    Despite what people with an agenda like Rodney Balko say, your chances of being on the wrong end of a police raid are pretty small. You do realize that Balko had to go back decades to get those numbers. There are thousands of warrants served every day in the US without incident.

    Here is the cold hard reality of it all. All of the guns and ammunition in the world isn't going to save you or even give you enough of a chance that a bookie would make odds on it if a group of armed people, be they the police or criminals decides to invade your home. No one can live at a high state of readiness 24/7. You have to sleep, you have to shower, use the bathroom, and most importantly, you have to be able to just sit back and relax. You can't do those things and be ready to repel home invaders at the same time.

    The only defense is to make your home secure enough to keep any home invaders out long enough for you to be alerted, equip yourself and take some kind of action. If you don't do that, YOU WILL LOSE! you may do a little bit of damage to your attackers but they will prevail.

    Now door frames, hinges, deadbolt locks, alarm systems, cell phones (in case the land line is cut), safe rooms, evacuation plans, windows and all the other nitnoid little details of making your home secure isn't as fun and sexy a discussion as waking from a sound sleep, jumping out of bed, grabbing your Kel-Tec and accidentally killing 3/4 of the State Police SWAT team, but it is a more practical and realistic discussion.

    Even an Infantry rifle company with all of it's weapons makes it's home secure by digging foxholes and trenches, stringing wire and laying mines to keep "home invaders" out or give them enough time to get everyone awake and ready to throw them out.

    That's where these discussions need to be focused. You aren't, no matter what you might think, going to wake from a sound sleep, jump up and win a gunfight against multiple assailants, unless you are living in a John Woo movie. Stop worrying about mistakenly shooting a cop. The chances are should you be able to get to your gun, that you will die right then and there in blaze of gunfire. The same is true for a group of criminals, except they may shoot before you reach for your gun.

    You want to not worry about it? Take the time to secure your home so that it take them time and tools to break in.
     
  3. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    Usual thread with unusual advice.

    Your advice to help the average citizen is good, but government is already working to undermine any defence.

    Sadly many municipalities are passing explicit laws forbidding the very (passive) measures you suggest, Mr White. As usual it's gussied up with a scary name 'fortified houses' and the stated purpose is to stop terrorist gangs from building impregnable houses.
     
  4. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    I suggest that you actually read the laws before you post about what they do or do not prohibit. These kinds of laws are not new. They have been on the books in several states for years.

    http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/072000050K19-5.htm
    See the part about knowing the building is used for the manufacture or distribution of drugs? This is an add on offense that is used in drug cases. Every law like this I've seen has a provision like that. There is no law anywhere in the US that I am aware of that prohibits you from making your home secure if you aren't using the home for illegal activities.

    Show me the one that requires you to have cheap doors and locks on your home.
     
  5. memphisjim

    memphisjim Member

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    shoooooot
     
  6. DRYHUMOR

    DRYHUMOR Member

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    Might be wise to yell "Stop! Police Officer! Lay down your weapons or I will Shoot!"

    This would be enough to pause those coming through the door long enough to think about a wrong address entry.

    If they are law enforcement.

    If they immediately start shooting, it may be assumed that they may not be law enforcement. The consequenses of your actions from that point forward may haunt you.

    People think about these kinds of scenarios, because we always consider the worse case. We wonder if we have adequately prepared for the worse case. And, we wonder what the few options will be available when the worse case happens.
     
  7. chuckusaret

    chuckusaret member

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    I have all of the above plus shotguns, rifles, pistols, auto matics and knives and it is legal here in Florida. We have the Castle Law. Thank God our law makers have common sense.

    We are also allowed to have a "Fortified Condition" by the latest Florida building codes. one of those codes calls for a main entrance steel door that opens outward capable of withstanding winds above 140 mph. My frontdoor also has nine deadbolts that set in a steel door frame
     
  8. t165

    t165 Member

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    IF...the dog hadn't stop to **** he would have caught the rabbit...IF a 38 Charter Arms revolver were junk John Lenon would still be alive...IF more doctors in the United States would prescribe Prozac and Zoloft good police officers would not have wanna-be (usually failed) holster sniffers critiquing everything they do and say!

    What if a meteorite lands on my head? Who can I sue for violating my RIGHTS...it must of been the police!

    GOOD GRIEF! what if...what if...what if...what if...what if...
     
  9. CentralTexas

    CentralTexas Member

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    Even if they yell "Police"

    I haven't done anything wrong so I will assume they aren't cops.
    If they are police they have made a mistake and are in the wrong house and full of adrenaline. Unlikely to happen, but it does. Is it wrong to discuss these scenarios?
    It's unlikely we will be in a store when it's robbed either, but we support training for such and the right to carry weapons just for that situation...
    It's unlikely I will be in a ocean crash traveling to London but I get a briefing from the attendant anyway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2009
  10. Cannonball888

    Cannonball888 Member

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    I hope you never have to get in to your house quickly.
     
  11. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    No-knock raids are a scary thing.

    However, if they knock, and they have no warrant, don't let them in. Doesn't matter who they are.

    Call the police and ask if it's really them at the door. Keep a large-caliber firearm aimed at the door.

    Get to know your rights -- because they can also help keep you safe from this stuff. The police conduct themselves in certain ways, probably not much like how thieves would.
     
  12. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    I too share the moderator's concern.

    I dont think there is a risk of suffereing a invasion of that sort. However I do feel that due to locals in the area, our Police has a pretty good understanding of which houses are good and which not so good.

    We live a extremly quiet lifestyle with no ties to anything connected to anyone who might be able to do anything of this sort of invasions. I point to the recent Walmart robbery attempt, one gunman with two friends in a getaway car. I point to a recent invasion in west little rock when three teens got into a home. A police K9 unit was exercising in a park moments away when they all got the call.

    In north little rock things are pretty rough and usually they find someone dead, dying or suffering from GSW by morning several times a week in the street or inside a home. Once in a while a carload of people shoot up a home in retailiation for drug or other crimes and hit the wrong people.

    But actual police will be able to identify themselves very quickly and they already know that we are armed with specific weapons and are on good terms with us. Heck one of the officers cheerfully issued me fingerprints so I can deliver them to ASP for the carry permit. No problem.

    Getting to the bands of criminals after all of that... I would think if we saw bands of criminals we would also be experiencing collaspe of society after a attack or local disaster like Katrina or earthquake.

    Out here in rural areas the bands of organized criminals idea is far fetched to us. Groups of buddies, cousins or teens bored? Yes but a squad of bad guys? I think not.

    When there is a problem where police are coming onto our lands the call will go out to 911 and there will be a great deal of yelling and warnings both ways. If done right no shooting. If this is a gang of bad guys, that will become apparent pretty quickly and.. we will see how it goes.

    For the life of me, I cannot think of any reasonable cause for the police to specifically target me or the majority of my neighbors. Everyone I know of live quiet lives the same we do.

    It must be a downtown big city problem IMHO if groups of bad guys are running about.

    We are not concerned with no knock raids. Frightening yes but we dismiss those as not revelant to us. If they did up and pull one, it will not be a first time a PD made a mistake somewhere in the USA.

    I think we should stay away from the idea of criminals posing as police. They would have to change the manners, ways of talking and adopt a process of behaving, tatics and other stuff that are alien to them to pull it off.

    However... the one thing I see sometimes that works very well is what I call the "Gas man" trick.

    Gas man knocks on your door wants access to your gas meter. (YOur gas meter is outside on the corner. and you dont have a basement DUH!!!)

    That door stays shut and we swing into the drill while the gasman poser is standing on porch wondering what to do or say at that point.
     
  13. Duke of Doubt

    Duke of Doubt member

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    Jeff White: "See the part about knowing the building is used for the manufacture or distribution of drugs?"

    Yep. I also saw the part about "... storage of ... cannabis ...". Meaning that in the literal words of that statute if you store an ounce of marihuana under your mattress and have a steel door, you would appear to be a felon in Illinois, under that statute.

    As to no-knock raids, I oppose them on principle and in practice. I have selected my dwelling with great care given to matters of security. It is NOT a fortified dwelling, and actually is pretty easy to break into. But it would take a lot of time and make a hell of a lot of noise not only to get into the building but also to get up to and into my unit(s), and then to find me within the sprawling, multiroom place(s). Plenty of time for me to arm and defend myself from the invader(s); also to phone over to the Watch Commander at local PD and find out what in Sam Hill is going on.
     
  14. ar10

    ar10 Member

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    In Columbus a "no-knock" search warrant is used if LE has reasonable the suspect/suspects are armed.
    One more recent incident, (that had wide local news coverage) was a search warrant was granted for a gambling house on the near East side of downtown. I can't be sure but I believe 2 officers were shot. One of those arrested was an ex OSU football player. His statement was that he thought they, (the gamblers) were being robbed. It didn't work. A couple of weeks ago they sent him to prison for a long time. The police did announce their presence before going in but the suspects stated they didn't.
    I've read of a few HI reports where the robbers announced the they were police. In response the CPD stated they always have a badge/ID readily seen by anyone while announcing they're police.
    Going into a wrong house happens but it's very seldom..
     
  15. Duke of Doubt

    Duke of Doubt member

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    ar10: "Going into a wrong house happens but it's very seldom.."

    Down in Maryland a decade ago a group of bounty hunters and phony bounty hunters were pulling home invasions. They'd knock and gain entry or they'd force their way in, then they'd tie up the occupants, rape and torture them to death, and make off with their valuables. Those guys didn't even have to claim they were police. Why anyone opens the door for anyone is beyond me. If the police are looking for me I'll surrender myself -- at the station. If they are at my door I will exit my dwelling by any of various means and surrender myself -- outside. No good, of any kind, at any time, ever came of letting an uninvited guest into your home without a warrant.
     
  16. mbt2001

    mbt2001 Member

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    Well, I don't understand the response. It is a valid question. A LEO in LA recently got sentenced to 200 years for helping outfit and run these kind of "on the side" robberies with a criminal gang.

    No knock warranted have resulted in people (INNOCENT PEOPLE) getting hurt / killed or what have you. I think we can all remember Atlanta. Jeff, I don't want to be a jerk, but you and the other LEO's of this country work for us. So when a question is asked and you feel the need to answer, please remind yourself that you are talking to your boss, not as a mod of THR...

    If the people are afraid of this, the cops need to review what they have done to 1.) cause the fear and 2.) can they fix it. In this case, I think if a few hours of honest to goodness surveillance was done before the warrant was issued, that would fix a lot of problems. (I am thinking specifically of Atlanta here).

    The police are becoming a paramilitary groups with Encrypted radio's and full automatic weapons. The below picture is from the University of Miami Police Department.... Yeah...

    [​IMG]
     
  17. apex

    apex Member

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    JeffWhite:

    I live in a rough city in a rough neighborhood in a building occupied by less-than-savory individuals. The rent is cheap and tenant turnover is high. There is no security in the building, and it is next to a park which is a hang-out for those who want to shoot dope, smoke weed, drink, sell drugs, sleep, sell sex, etc. There are blind corners in the hallways and dark stairwells. I can afford it, it is close to my job and my girlfriend's job. Would I like to move? Yup, and the lease is up in one month (after having dealt with this for a year). Didn't know it was like this when I moved in - I moved here from another city two weeks after graduating from college so that I could get right to work.

    If you would like to send a check so I can purchase a home in the 'burbs, PM me and I will give you the address (m.o. preferred). then I am sure I won't have to worry about anyone kicking in my door. Otherwise, maybe take off the blinders and stop railing against fellow posters.

    I could realistically see anyone, police or criminal element, who is thinking of kicking in a door in my building making a mistake. I think it is a reasonable question - What would you do if..." and i don't see any fantasy in the OP of shooting police officers.

    Rent an apartment in my building and see if you don't have all kinds of scenarios run through your mind. I think about these types of things - so I can hopefully respond in an appropriate fashion.
     
  18. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    Apex, I have seen some of the tenements in Baltimore and you have to step onto urine and used needles on the staircase to get to your unit. Night and day constant noise, human fighting and screaming and violence.

    Nah.

    I think if the real estate prices fall far enough you might be able to get out of your unit and live in a block with many houses up for sale and live quietly for a while. Only that those houses are being squatted, used as houses of crime, drugs and such because they have been on the market for so long they are falling apart.

    Just recently I think Flint Michigan is thinking of paying people to move back downtown and turning dead neighborhoods into dirt lots and cutting off security, police and fire services to zones that are attracting the bad crimes. My source for this is TedTurner

    http://turnerradionetwork.blogspot.com/2009/04/us-cities-in-dire-collapse-talk-of.html

    Source web home

    http://turnerradionetwork.blogspot.com

    I think that in some cities there wont even be police availible to do anything for you.

    Might have to think about some land out west.. maybe 160 acres up in the Bitterroots or the Watsach, Medicine Bow ranges or even along the Montana's continential divide to get away from this stuff and get some peace and quiet. Winters up there are slow drifts 6 months out of the year too high for anyone to walk around in.
     
  19. mbt2001

    mbt2001 Member

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    In his book about WWI John Keegan said something to the effect of:

    The cause of the war isn't as important as WHAT MADE IT POSSIBLE. The point being that it wasn't just a justification, but industrial expansion, economic pressures, technological inventions, population explosions and so on.

    What is my point?

    Why are people more and more afraid of the police? The criminal code is so complex now days that who the hell knows what we are breaking and when? I think I haven't committed any felonies, but beyond that I am not so certain. The police have incredible power and it seems to be growing.

    So the question is well asked from your side, WHY WOULD JOE CITIZEN BE AFRAID OF THIS? But I believe the more important question is:

    What can we do to stop this growing feeling?
     
  20. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    The advent of the no-knock warrant made these criminal impersonator "raids" (invasions) possible. Get rid of the no-knock warrant then there will be no doubt who is crashing down your door. If the no-knock warranted raid is eliminated, there is no chance of a SWAT team heading for the wrong house.

    Yeah, I know. I'm being too practical and making too much sense. Sue me.

    Woody
     
  21. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    In my area it's very easy not to be afraid of the police. We might be doing yardwork within earshot of the street and the local police ask us from thier cruiser if we have seen a certain make of a vehicle go by recently. Yes but didnt think anything about it at the time.

    A short time later they come by and tell us that focused the county in locating said vehicle and thanked us.

    It's that easy to plant seeds of a ... cooperation with the local law in a positive manner.

    Keep in mind when I was a child in Baltmore we had large police officers carrying a gun on one hip and a very big billy club on the other hip walking a beat on just about every corner. They usually sorted out which kid lives in which house and usually learned which liked the strudel and which liked the pretzels near the deli essen, not a problem having positive contact growing up.

    Today?

    Those days are gone forever. The police now ride TWO to a cruiser and expect to have a firefight at any moment against any number of unknown criminals.

    Very difficult for REAL people living real lives participating in society to have any kind of positive contact with LEO's

    And you wonder why the fear spreads.
     
  22. Duke of Doubt

    Duke of Doubt member

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    mbt2001: "I think I haven't committed any felonies, but beyond that I am not so certain."

    Most people have, with or without realizing it. So many activities have been criminalized, and so much crime has been elevated to felony status, that I've made a parlor game out of proving to smug but honest law-and-order types that had they been caught at everything they've done, they'd be in prison. I have to admit, some of them have changed their whole attitude in response.
     
  23. loneviking

    loneviking Member

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    Even with a 'no-knock' warrant they have to have a warrant---a piece of paper (often several papers) listing the address, expected occupants and the particulars of who and what is to be seized. If they don't have a warrant when they show up, then there's going to be a problem.

    But, when they do show up, usually it's in force with lots of cop cars and a SWAT van at 0dark thirty with one guy on point with the warrant papers and a second guy with a door ram. Any other scenario, be careful.
     
  24. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    Actually I think it's o dark 530 right where the human body is at it's sleepest usually against the bad guys.

    Ive seen some of these raids on satellite video and it never ceases to amaze me how fast 25 people working the entire building can capture so many so fast while tripping over a pile of weapons within the building itself.

    The bad guys have way too many guns but NO time to use any of them.
     
  25. user3214

    user3214 Member

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    Throw in a smoke grn.
     
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