Critical Duty 9mm
- Thread starter beeb173
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smalls
Member
It was designed to reliably expand with the velocity it gets out of a "duty sized" barrel. I don't know what they consider duty sized, but I can bet it's not 3.5". It might expand, but I wouldn't bet my life on it, when there's so many other ammo choices available. Especially when some of those are designed for short barrel velocities.
critical duty comes in boxes of 25 instead of 20 for my +p winchester rounds i usually carry. so the reason i asked was because its a non +p round thats less expensive (or the same price for 5 extra rounds). the short barrel specific ammo that i've seen is all +p. i guess until someone does a test out of a PF9 into gel or wet news paper, i wont know for sure.
smalls
Member
You could do a test. Save up them milk jugs!
Shawn Dodson
Member
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Federal 147gr HST (standard pressure) performs well out of short barrels. Bonus is you can purchase 50 rounds for $27 (plus shipping) from Streicher's Police Supply - http://www.policehq.com/Products/FC-9HST
Skylerbone
Member
It's the complete burn of powder that makes the biggest difference with longer barrels but that is dependent on the propellent used. Different barrels will also perform differently depending on slight variations in diameter.
If the bullet itself is a proven design, say a Gold Dot, a simple chronograph check through the specific pistol will tell you what you need to know. If the test velocities are listed they can be verified.
If the bullet itself is a proven design, say a Gold Dot, a simple chronograph check through the specific pistol will tell you what you need to know. If the test velocities are listed they can be verified.
Skylerbone
Member
If you know Gold Dots for example, have been tested and at what velocity they performed at properly then the reasonable expectation is that they will perform similarly in your pistol if your specific pistol shoots them at the tested velocity.
In the case of testing any pre-packaged ammo velocity is the only portion of testing that matters. A Glock with 200,000 rounds through the barrel won't shoot the same as a brand new custom 15" test barrel. If velocity is stated, you need only know what your pistol's velocity is with the same ammo. Let the big companies buy gelatin, buy a chrony and reload your own loads for pennies not dollars. It will pay for itself. My preferred load is the XTP at around $23/100 in 9mm, $26/100 in .45ACP
In the case of testing any pre-packaged ammo velocity is the only portion of testing that matters. A Glock with 200,000 rounds through the barrel won't shoot the same as a brand new custom 15" test barrel. If velocity is stated, you need only know what your pistol's velocity is with the same ammo. Let the big companies buy gelatin, buy a chrony and reload your own loads for pennies not dollars. It will pay for itself. My preferred load is the XTP at around $23/100 in 9mm, $26/100 in .45ACP
You can shoot an M79 40mm through a 3" barrel. It's not likely to develop enough muzzle velocity to do a whole lot of damage. I got the Critical Defense for my wife's LCP in the summer. She practices head shots mostly with it. At ten feet. During the winter, I load FMJ to make sure the bullet will make it through a coat. Like stabbing them with an ice pick as I read in another thread.
bigfatdave
Member
are you claiming that the Critical Duty round expands while in transit to the target?
Skylerbone
Member
Too many people conceptualize a paper target and a 2-D hole vs. something like a wound cavity or a block of wood with a small entry hole and a large exit hole.
bigfatdave
Member
two things
1 - You might want to specify when your target is something other than paper, particularly when you're shooting through it. And what are you using? Thin sheet steel or lightweight angle iron? (I use cast-off pots and pans from Goodwill, I'm aware of semi-disposable metallic targets, I just don't generally test defensive ammo on them, as water jugs are more fun)
2 - Expansion on contact with a hard barrier actually doesn't have much to do with expansion through hydraulic pressure while a round travels through meat, although it is interesting to a degree ... have any pictures of the .40S&W critical duty holes in your steel target? A comparison picture of FMJ vs critical duty would be especially interesting.
1 - You might want to specify when your target is something other than paper, particularly when you're shooting through it. And what are you using? Thin sheet steel or lightweight angle iron? (I use cast-off pots and pans from Goodwill, I'm aware of semi-disposable metallic targets, I just don't generally test defensive ammo on them, as water jugs are more fun)
2 - Expansion on contact with a hard barrier actually doesn't have much to do with expansion through hydraulic pressure while a round travels through meat, although it is interesting to a degree ... have any pictures of the .40S&W critical duty holes in your steel target? A comparison picture of FMJ vs critical duty would be especially interesting.
PT92
Member
Skylerbone
Member
I was explaining that you weren't shooting at paper for those who missed it. Nowhere in my posting did I claim you were shooting at paper, it was in response to BFD's post. Good to see your comprehension was as acute there as it was when you read the forum rules.
PS: I can see by your general attitude you'll not be my future reference for biblical enlightenment.
This thread is exactly why Gelatin is the only legitimate medium for testing bullet performance.
With gelatin you can see exactly what the bullet does at every depth and it also shows that without exception bullets do not expand in air.
With gelatin you can see exactly what the bullet does at every depth and it also shows that without exception bullets do not expand in air.
PT92
Member
When the manufacturer clearly states a particular ammunition line is NOT optimized for short barreled, concealed carry style handguns, I'd think that's a pretty obvious hint. http://www.hornady.com/support/critical-duty-and-critical-defense../QUOTE]
Or could it be that the company might want to continue/perpetuate sales/profits in both lines of ammo (Defense&Duty?). Hornady also clearly states that the Duty line will fire fine in ALL handguns but we do need to see tests for Duty from compact pistols pertaining to expansion (many other SD loads from other vendors as well). Worse case and you have the misfortune of a perp attack today using 9mm Duty in say, your P11, chances are the bad guy won't complain.
-Cheers
smalls
Member
No, worst case is that it acts like a FMJ, because it doesn't expand. It goes through the attacker (which was a non fatal, non stopping hit) and he continues his assault, and the round hits an innocent bystander.
There's a reason we expect a hollow point to expand.
Sure, it'll fire. But will it reliably expand? See above.
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PT92
Member
Agreed-but you, me, him, her etc... it's all conjecture untill we see tests. We don't know what will happen until such time that the data materializes.
FYI (and note that I do not agree with it) but in a court of law you will have a better chance defending yourself in a shooting with FMJ than you will with a so-called 'mechanically-engineered' load designed to do maximum damage to a human being. To reiterate, I think that is ridiculous but it's food for thought in the ever-increasing leftist judicial system we are seeing.
I think I should be able to use any load I see fit but good luck telling a court that.
smalls
Member
You've been reading too much internet myth. Please cite a legitimate reference where what kind of bullet used in a self defense shooting landed someone in prison.
If you go on trial for a self defense shooting, the prosecution thinks you are in the wrong. They will try to portray you as a murderer, by saying that you used killer bullets, and that you carry a gun to kill innocent children, etc. Your (and your attorney's) job is to prove that what you did was to save your life. It doesn't matter what kind of gun you used, or what kind of ammo it was loaded with. That's ridiculous.
PT92
Member
Cite a case/reference where over-penetration from a civilian likewise resulted in prosecution as that is where your concern is...?
smalls
Member
1) 1989, Philadelphia cop is killed by .38 slugs from police passing through
a felony suspect;
2) 1990, Univ. of Arizona campus, officer A fires at suspect and bullet passes
through suspect's ARM and goes on to kill officer B;
3) 1990, So. Cal., L.A. sheriffs "became embroiled in a shootout with an armed
robber". Badguy ran into the doorway of a mom 'n pop convenience store. Mom
was behind the badguy when police fired, bullet passed through the badguy,
mom died, badguy lived.
Those are just a quick search, and are police shoots.
Obviously, though, over penetration is a concern.
You honestly don't think that if one of your bullets that leaves your gun over penetrates your target, and hits an innocent bystander, you're not going to suffer the consequences?
NYPD has paid out on several lawsuits in the past, because they didn't want to change from FMJ to JHP's, and innocent people were struck by interpenetrating rounds.
a felony suspect;
2) 1990, Univ. of Arizona campus, officer A fires at suspect and bullet passes
through suspect's ARM and goes on to kill officer B;
3) 1990, So. Cal., L.A. sheriffs "became embroiled in a shootout with an armed
robber". Badguy ran into the doorway of a mom 'n pop convenience store. Mom
was behind the badguy when police fired, bullet passed through the badguy,
mom died, badguy lived.
Those are just a quick search, and are police shoots.
Obviously, though, over penetration is a concern.
You honestly don't think that if one of your bullets that leaves your gun over penetrates your target, and hits an innocent bystander, you're not going to suffer the consequences?
NYPD has paid out on several lawsuits in the past, because they didn't want to change from FMJ to JHP's, and innocent people were struck by interpenetrating rounds.
PT92
Member
Small,
I'm confused, here's your quote:
followed by:
So which is it according to you, we should or should not be concerned about "what bullet leaves our gun" as you say...
.Please clarify.
-Cheers
smalls
Member
If they decide to try and scrutinize your choice of bullet, they will lose that argument in court.
But you will be charged with the accidental killing, if you over penetrate and hit someone else. Yes, even if you use a JHP and it fails to expand, causing it to act like a FMJ and over penetrate.
By your way of thinking, why don't police use FMJ's?
(Answer- Over penetration issues)
But you will be charged with the accidental killing, if you over penetrate and hit someone else. Yes, even if you use a JHP and it fails to expand, causing it to act like a FMJ and over penetrate.
By your way of thinking, why don't police use FMJ's?
(Answer- Over penetration issues
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