Cross Draw

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by BulletArc47, Feb 11, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 76shuvlinoff

    76shuvlinoff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Messages:
    2,317
    Location:
    Michigan
    Being a lefty I found it a great way to carry when on a motorcycle. I either had a micro 1911 in an adjustable cant OWB kydex holster or a full size 1911 in a vertical shoulder rig.
     
  2. jeepnik

    jeepnik Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,295
    Location:
    SoCal
    Hey maybe that's it. I'm a southpaw as well, maybe only southpaws who think with the right side of the brain have figured out the advantages of cross draw:D
     
  3. TonyDedo

    TonyDedo Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    286
    Location:
    Concord, MA
    Very difficult to conceal a cross draw rig. It needs to be carried around 2:00 (or in a shoulder holster)
     
  4. smle41

    smle41 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2011
    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Athol, ID
    I am not so sure the crossdraw is that hard to cover up.. especially if one uses a "decoy" near it, such as a now-ubiquitous cell phone. Also, of course, the smaller the weapon, the "better" the holster, are factors...
     
  5. Rexster

    Rexster Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    4,036
    Location:
    SE Texas
    Those of us who favor a "Jack Benny" arm position while standing to monitor a situation can discreetly have a hand on the weapon, in the crossdraw rig, if the cover garment is open at the lower front. When/if the weapon is drawn, the support hand is already in a high position, ready to thrust/poke/punch forward to either strike or distract the threat, and/or go into a high guard position, to protect one's head/face, while the weapon hand commences the draw. This support-hand movement also keeps the support hand/arm farther away from the muzzle.

    I have usually used crossdraw for a secondary weapon. During part of this time, I carried a crossdraw rig just forward of my primary weapon, the handguns back-to-back, so I would only have one piece of belt-level real estate to defend against a gun-grab attempt.

    The twist draw, or cavalry draw, can be performed without sweeping one's self, or anyone else; keep the muzzle pointed at the deck until the weapon is forward of one's body.

    "Crossdraw" is a broad term, that is, perhaps, best specified a bit better. "Front" crossdraw, forward of the point of the hip, has much in common with "appendix" carry, and shares many tactics with appendix carry, which includes being quite defendable when the fight is within touching distance. Crossdraw carry behind the point of the hip is generally more concealable, works better with the twist or cavalry draw, and is a bit more accessible to an opponent to one's front, while being a bit less accessible to an opponent to one's rear, especially of the rig is canted to one's front.

    I do not advocate cross-draw, but never hesitate to mention its strengths, based upon my experiences. There are times when a cross-draw rig has distinct advantages for some folks.
     
  6. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    723
    Location:
    Lake Charles, Louisiana
    Cross draw is a common way of carry among concealed carriers because it allows fast access to the pistol while driving or otherwise in a seated position. It is not a common way of open carry because it makes attempting a gun grab easier than it should be. When a cross draw carried pistol is concealed, the potential for a gun grab goes way down. Why do you say that it is uncommon for concealed carry?
     
  7. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    723
    Location:
    Lake Charles, Louisiana
    If drawing from a cross draw is slower, or one is flagging people, the draw is simply not being executed properly. From concealment, presenting from an open front crossdraw can actually be done slightly faster than from strong side hip carry because the cover garment need not be swept away during the "access" step. Last, how can your opponent draw your gun if he does not know it is there?
     
  8. David E

    David E Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,459
    If the badguy is at 12 o'clock and your gun is pointing between 7 and 9 o'clock, you're going to cover someone standing between 10 and 12. You can alleviate this somewhat by unnaturally keeping your muzzle pointed down as you complete the draw arc before elevating the muzzle, but it's unnatural and takes longer. The other way is for the good guy to face 3 o'clock so the badguy at 12 is almost immediately covered by the muzzle as it clears the holster, but the good guy can't always do this. In fact, if he has a child or other loved one with him, his protective action of sweeping them back and away from the threat would result in the good guy clocking more towards 9-10, making the arc of the crossdraw even longer, slower and more likely to cover an innocent.

    Have you ever used a shot timer to compare the two? How were the hits? The details would be interesting, so could you please provide them?

    Because crossdraw doesn't conceal as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  9. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    723
    Location:
    Lake Charles, Louisiana
    First, If one has his target at 12 oclock when his pistol is coming out of the holster, it is his sluggishness in getting his feet into shooting position that is slowing him down. Why would one wait until the sights are on the target before aligning his body with the target?

    Second, learning how to draw a pistol safely from any concealed position is unnatural and takes longer than drawing from unconcealed positions. This may be why you believe that cross draw does not conceal well. Putting a cross draw holster where it is natural to draw from does make it difficult to conceal. The same is true of a strong side hip holster. Police duty belts put pistols where they are natural to draw from. Concealment strong side hip holsters do not.

    Third, my speed drill involves two Bianchi D1 Tombstone targets at 21 feet. I shoot them both twice inside the center mass line. From my crossdraw, I average just over 1.3 seconds to 4 hits with a .45 ACP. From my strong side hip holster, I average just under 1.5 seconds with a .45. It is not a huge difference, about 10%, but slower its not.

    Lastly, sweeping a raised muzzle accross to a primary target is a dangerous habit and no respected instructor anywhere teaches it. The muzzle is raised onto the primary target from the bottom, not the side, even when doing it that way is a little slower. The function of a carry peice is to make us safer. Sweeping a muzzle onto a target from the side make those who do it a danger to innocent people.

    Just because you have not been trained on how to correctly do something does not mean that it cannot be done correctly, it just means that you do not know how.
     
  10. David E

    David E Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,459
    What? Are you saying your feet need to be in "shooting position" before one can fire accurate shots?

    Oh, I don't know, maybe you're carrying a child, maybe you're moving a loved one out of the line if fire. You know, real life stuff like that. A better question is, why would anyone espouse a technique that only works when the shooter will properly "align his body with the target?"

    The hell you say! ;)

    Putting it where its easy to conceal makes it difficult to draw.

    Not really.

    We need more details. Timed how and with what? Start position? What are you calling center mass on that target? Targets are how far apart from each other? Concealment garment type? I'm curious how fast your first shot is, also.

    Rereading it, you say "just over 1.3" meaning what? 1.35? Then you're "just under 1.5"...meaning 1.45? Are you using a stopwatch?

    I'd say quite a bit slower. I'd like to put a laser on the gun of the crossdraw advocate to track exactly where his muzzle goes.....but outside of the pistol training range. I bet he'll be a little surprised where his muzzle really goes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    14,637
    All okay for stationary Bianchi Tombstone targets at 21 ft., but how about a target moving around your car door at 5 m/s?
     
  12. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    723
    Location:
    Lake Charles, Louisiana
    Timed with the surefire timer app for my Ipad. Starting position standing with my hands at my sides. Open front cover garment, specifically an unbuttoned shirt. Splits are .15-.18. Center Mass on a D1 is a 4 inch circle. Targets are 18 inches to three feet apart. First shot crossdraw averages .834. First shot strong side hip avarages .981.

    Quit making stuff up. I never said that the techniques we teach do not work unless one aligns his position with the target. I wrote that one should align his position with the target while presenting the pistol. I have trained over 1000 NRA Instructors to teach people to align their position with the target because one can get hits faster that way. Every NRA Instructor in the country teaches that technique. You can do it while carrying a child. You can do it while moving a loved one out of the line of fire. Do you actually believe that you know more about pistol shooting than the NRA?

    We know where the muzzle points at every moment of a correctly executed presentation from a crossdraw holster. We know that bringing the muzzle onto the target from the bottom is .1-.15 seconds slower for the first shot than sweeping to the target. We also know that split times .1-.15 seconds faster on getting the second shot onto target because bringing the muzzle onto the primary target from the bottom allows gravity and tension from the weak hand bring the gun right back to center mass. Sweeping onto the target from the side causes the pistol to be moving laterally when the first shot is fired making getting the sights back onto target an exercize in adjusting for both windage and elevation, instead of just elevation.

    Lastly, I never Advocated crossdraw carry. I simply corrected some misconceptions that people were posting in this thread. I carry one pistol strong side hip and one crossdraw. The cross draw is for when I am seated or need to draw with my left hand. Strong side hip is my BUG. There is no method of carry that is best for everyone. Your infantile need to have your preferred method promulgated as the "best" is causing you to mislead people. Take a class. Read a book from a recognized authority. Quit simply repeating things that you read on the internet.
     
  13. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    723
    Location:
    Lake Charles, Louisiana
    That scenario is why I carry one pistol cross draw. I have a spot on my range set up for people to practice dealing with that type of threat from their car. It is a point shoot drill and first hits from a crossdraw holster are in .6-.7 seconds. The pistol is aligned with the target as it clears the holster and the left hand stays on the wheel while one point shoots under it. It is one of the most fun drills that we have.
     
  14. David E

    David E Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,459
    I didnt make up anything. You stated: it is his sluggishness in getting his feet into shooting position that is slowing him down.

    This certainly implies that "proper body alignment" is essential, in your view, to make fast, accurate hits. That's just blather.

    Um, no, they don't.

    Really? Describe your draw sequence using a crossdraw holster while carrying a child.

    When it comes to shooting fast and accurately, I humbly say, yes. And I say that as a certified NRA Instructor, since that seems to carry some weight with you, since you keep citing your credentials. :rolleyes:

    Interesting reaction..... I posted some real-life shortcomings of crossdraw and suddenly you make personal attacks?

    And you claim to teach NRA instructors? :scrutiny:
     
  15. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    723
    Location:
    Lake Charles, Louisiana
    If you are an NRA Instructor and are not teaching students to align their position with the target when you teach an NRA class, I need to get your full name, address, and NRA Instructor number so that NRA can review your credentials for not teaching according to NRA standards and guidelines. It is not permissible for NRA instructors to teach what they believe is best when teaching NRA classes. If you think that you know better than the NRA, you are free to offer David M's training classes. Put your money where your mouth is. Give me your full name and NRA number. That, combined with your Confession here that you teach what you want because you believe your way is superior to NRA's way will allow NRA to correct the problem of having an instructor that fails to uphold NRA standards in NRA classes.

    See you are doing it again. You are again making stuff up. This time you are being more creative. There has been no personal attack. Describing behavior is not a personal attack. When an anonymous internet persona claims his shooting techniques are more natural, faster, and more accurate than the techniques which are the national standard for firearms training, his need to feel superior is self evident. Also, I do not "keep citing" my creds. I mentioned them once to give context to my posts. My creds are verifiable. Search on NRAInstructors.org for instructor courses in Louisiana. Your creds are verifiable too, but only if they actually exist.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  16. David E

    David E Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,459
    Wow, talk about making crap up!

    I cited my NRA certification as additional info, nothing more. I haven't taught an NRA class in awhile, since just about any schmuck can teach and master their course content. In contrast, my students have progressed past what the NRA has to offer. Hence, they come to me.

    When I teach, I do teach body position.....but then I emphasize that BODY POSITION DOESN'T MATTER, because in real life, you'll hardly ever be able to shoot for blood after assuming the perfect shooting stance.

    Some people, as proven here, don't seem to grasp that simple reality.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  17. Bill4282

    Bill4282 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    161
    Seems to me that, being a southpaw and a small portion of society is left-handed, it would be to my advantage to carry strong-side since the bad guy would focus on my right-hand side for a weapon and I would get the drop on him. PS-nobody mentioned carrying "Mexican"
     
  18. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    34,961
    Location:
    Central PA
    As much fun as it is to watch this...it's just not up to THR standards.

    I'll admit, though...I've never heard anyone hold up the NRA's official pistol instruction as the gold standard before. Or threaten someone with expulsion from the mystic order for teaching apocrypha not found in the holy writ! That's new!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice