Cultural shifts relating to firearms

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by DustyGmt, Nov 18, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. goon

    goon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,265
    That’s exactly right. They wanted to mobilize gun owners as a political identity group to come out en masse for Trump. They intentionally tried to market Trump’s staying in office and the 2A as the same thing. I’m not enthusiastic at all about the current President, but the last one cared much more about himself than he did the rights of gun owners (or anything else really).

    I don’t have many outward displays of gun ownership or gun culture because it’s better to be more gray. I want to talk about guns with other gun owners - case hardening, absurd bayonets, old rifles, WML’s, where to find buck shot in stock. But I don’t want to waste my time arguing with gun control advocates, because I can’t change their opinions. Having a bunch of pro-2A displays sets me up to get yanked into pointless arguments. I don’t care what they think, and I have no desire to invite their noise into my life.
     
    daverich4 likes this.
  2. goon

    goon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,265
    Frankly, I wonder if many gun owners (or anyone else) would even recognize tyranny. I’ve seen over the past 3 - 4 years that almost anyone will support policies they personally like, whether it’s constitutional or not. People just want what they want. The framework of the Constitution checks some of that… Thank God.
     
    Demi-human, DustyGmt and Howland937 like this.
  3. SimonRL

    SimonRL Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2020
    Messages:
    171
    Nobody even blinks an eye that 4,000 people are killed on the road each year in Texas alone.
     
  4. illinoisburt

    illinoisburt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2014
    Messages:
    1,734
    Location:
    Central Alabama -- recently relocated from Chicago
    I happen to have many acquaintances who are dyed-in-the-wool-plaid-jacket Fudds. They do not like bowhunting. They may accept some super woodsmen doing it but overall it's people in the woods with special seasons that don't deserve it plus arrows are cruel. As a whole they all own guns, primarily double shotguns for trap and birds, and various hunting rifles. Very few own handguns (they really like the Judge 410 revolvers) and they express dislike of CC/OC. For reasons I don't understand they tend to support AWBs and mag restrictions. I've heard more than a couple times people who hunt with 7mag and 300rum talk about how dangerous ARs and AKs are with high velocity armor piercing rounds. A couple I've spoken with about shooting pistol/carbine courses with my son truly do not get the silliness of that line of thinking. By the way, these guys cover a lot of age and income brackets.
     
    Demi-human and goon like this.
  5. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    27,965
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    Believe me, us gun owners in CA have seen it, for DECADES.
     
  6. Sniper66

    Sniper66 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2012
    Messages:
    3,120
    Location:
    NE Kansas
    Our gun culture has, indeed, taken a beating. I know a number of shooters who dislike AR style rifles, but think everything else is OK. And many who think it should be the job a government to dictate who can own guns and who must be restricted.. These people have no problem with background checks, wait times, limits on gun ownership and ammo acquisition. That no doubt comes from the relentless antigun campaign waged in newspapers and TV every day. DON'T FALL FOR IT!!! And here is my gripe of the day. I read numerous posts with shooting as the main topic. Many such posts include an almost apologetic detail of how safe they are and how they always emphasize safety above all else. Of course we learn to be safety conscious, but you don't have to remind everyone that you use your seatbelt if you are posting on a hotrod site.
     
    Bazoo, Demi-human and Growlers like this.
  7. BLACKHAWKNJ

    BLACKHAWKNJ Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2007
    Messages:
    636
    One cultural shift is that between the high divorce rate and the high rate of illegitimacy fatherlessness seems to have become the norm, hence too few of the young are introduced to firearms and shooting by a parent.
     
    Growlers likes this.
  8. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    10,334
    Location:
    WNY
    No, it is more the urban / rural migration pattern. That's been demonstrated in the literature. Now, the SD movement might turn that around a bit. Gun culture is not dominated now by the old hunting paradigm.

    The high divorce and illegitmacy rate seems related to the destruction of good jobs, either from automation or sending good jobs overseas. When men cannot be good providers, those two problems increase. Seen all over the world.
     
    Demi-human and DustyGmt like this.
  9. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2018
    Messages:
    3,001
    Location:
    SE Wisconsin
    Had to put this out there. Article by CNN which I am not accustom to following but a search on the topic lead me to this.

    Medea and political types keep touting the gun death and COVID death numbers but then completely ignore the numbers of deaths cause by Fentanyl. A highly deadly drug that is being smuggled in daily through our southern border. So read this and get informed.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/17/politics/fentanyl-overdose-deaths-what-matters/index.html
     
  10. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    10,334
    Location:
    WNY
    I don't know about that, I've seen fentanyl stories on the major nightly news quite a few times.

    Also, there is a wave of polls coming out showing that pro gun control sentiments are dropping. The biggest drops are in the conservative and independent sections. Left, well, what do you think. However, Pew and Gallop indicate that pro gun control law expansion is not in the majority anymore if you sum across the country.
     
    LiveLife likes this.
  11. BLACKHAWKNJ

    BLACKHAWKNJ Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2007
    Messages:
    636
    I think the growth in fatherlessness is due to cultural factors other than job exportation, etc.
    One shift is away from hunting to paper punching, and at the ranges I shoot at self defense use of handguns is far more prevalent than target shooting.
     
  12. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    10,334
    Location:
    WNY
    Sorry to disagree, but there's fair evidence that loss of solid jobs for males leads to cultural disruption and family disruption. Societies with nuclear families across the world found that fatherlessness increased with the lack of solid male employment.

    The study of gun culture has documented the shift to SD for quite a bit of time.
     
    Kleanbore and Demi-human like this.
  13. Mosin77

    Mosin77 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2019
    Messages:
    862
    I think that back in the day, a greater percentage of the population owned guns, or had immediate family who did, so there was greater familiarity and comfort with them.

    Then tons of people moved to suburbs in the 20s-00s, where crime was a lot lower, and yet there was zero need to shoot something for dinner, or to deal with varmints (because you don’t typically have a chicken coop in the suburbs.) This familiarity with guns was lost, and they became scary death tubes used by criminals and mentioned in the media whenever any sensational crime happened.

    There are a lot of gun owners now but because the active ones tend to be enthusiasts in a hobby (rather than owning 1-2 guns for farm use or to keep under the cash register) they tend to have much larger collections than in the past. 1-2 working guns are probably not enough by themselves to justify burglarizing a house…. But 50 guns? Or even 10? A safe starts to sound like a good idea. Especially when your suburbanite cousin freaks out about the idea of her kid seeing a gun at your place.
     
  14. DustyGmt

    DustyGmt Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,839
    Location:
    Green Mountains Vermont
    I've often reflected on my outward and open attitude about guns and often wished I was a lil better disciplined about being discreet and being more gray like some of you guys.

    I don't walk around with "Armed American Patriot Gunfghter Pro 2A Nugent For President" T-shirts or have my car riddled with gun flash or anything like that but it is something I'm passionate about and have been a lil more transparent about it than I would like. Oh well, can't unring a bell, I will be more discreet in the future and the people who know aren't a big concern.

    I do not look favorably on the flamboyant gun nuts and the antagonistic people showing up to rallies and walking the streets with AR's in full kit. Just because it's a right doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It's also your right to wear underwear on your head but you draw alot of attention doing so and the guys who claim to be pro 2A and walk around with their rifles aren't doing us any favors.

    I remember thinking this during the lead up to the sweeping gun control legislation in Vermont where pro 2A guys protesting the pending legislation and the media made sure to only cover the most eccentric wing bat, "1776 WILL COMMENCE!!!" heavily bearded bubba types and just gave us a very negative portrayal. The measures passed and I'm not sure any of that had a direct impact as Gov Scott was going to do what he wanted but it still irked me. That's the media strategy prominently used against us and pro 2A people ought to know better.....
     
    entropy and Howland937 like this.
  15. AlexanderA
    • Contributing Member

    AlexanderA Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    8,635
    Location:
    Virginia
    The percentage of the general population owning guns is probably greater now than at any point in our previous history. The sales figures tell the story. But the new owners are not hunters, farmers, or target shooters. Social fear is what's driving people to arm themselves. Fear of crime as well as fear of their political opponents.
     
  16. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    10,334
    Location:
    WNY
    There is no debate from academic research and industry research that the surge in gun buying is related to personal usage in classic self defense against crooks and social disruption.

    One divide is the purchase of AR type guns for SD and social disruption. Their usage in rampages and political demonstrations will lead to push back. How to make them generally acceptable is a battle between their seemingly excessive lethality and how they support a public good. The latter being more intensive self-defense, social disruption and defense against tyranny. The latter threatened tyranny depends on your political persuasion.

    Hunting and sporting usages are becoming irrelevant. Ward Cleaver taking out the Beaver to plink or shoot Bambi - who cares for the most part in this debate. Tightly gun controlled countries still have hunting outlets.
     
    AlexanderA and .308 Norma like this.
  17. rust collector
    • Contributing Member

    rust collector Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Messages:
    4,292
    Location:
    Pierre, SD USA
    I don't think we can afford to discard any segment of the gun owning population. Hunters, though some are short sighted, wield significant influence and we can use all we can get. Same with target shooters, home defenders and collectors. We need to work together. Pointing to one faction or another as clueless or useless plays into the hands of those who seek to make gun ownership more burdensome or prohibited.
     
  18. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    10,334
    Location:
    WNY
    Unfortunately, some of the groups mentioned have played into the hands of gun banning forces. Also, they have tried to justify gun ownership based on a hunting and sports rationale.

    We know from recent examples in the UK and Australia that claims to allow our 'sport' failed dramatically. We know that in other countries, sporting arms are kept locked in clubs to be checked out for range or hunting usage. Having them at home in any manner useful for self-defense is forbidden.

    Rachel Maddow is a gun enthusiast and likes to shoot 1911s and ARs. She takes her dates to the range. She also says that such guns should be kept locked up at the range and checked out for entertainment.

    If the 'sporting' groups do not understand or undermine the major reasons for the 2nd Amendment, they are detrimental to the cause as they offer a fictional version of the Second Amendment. As Amy Klobuchar said - she supported the 2nd Amendment as she didn't want to take her Uncle Dick's rifle from his deer blind. Mitt Romney (ARs are weapons of war) and Hillary mentioned their 'prowess' on the hunt. Kerry and his goose!

    The proposition was that gun attitudes were changing because of cultural shift from Dad and his boy's guns. That is not the cause. Gun attitudes now are driven by SD issues or fear of rampages, also with the gun becoming symbolic totems of political identity.

    Thus I return to the idea that the sporting usages are not a useful focus. Those folks need to come to core 2nd Amendment support. The idea of making ARs nice by calling the modern sporting rifles was pandering to the gun is toy mantra, let me have my toy. Stupid.

    If Kyle's defense said that he was carrying a modern sporting rifle, it would have seemed ridiculous. I note that the gun world had major hissy fits when the guns were called assault rifles (as with having hissy fits over clips vs guns). So note that media took the message and are calling them military style semiautomatic rifles. Fat lot of good the hissy fits did.

    Folks would say - well, don't ban ARs as you can shoot a lever action as fast. Great plan to get folks to say - Hey, ban those also - check out Australia.

    Only core argument for the 2nd Amendment will work if presented without raving and the legitimacy of SD and defense against tyranny is important. Sports are irrelevant.
     
    trackskippy and AlexanderA like this.
  19. AlexanderA
    • Contributing Member

    AlexanderA Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    8,635
    Location:
    Virginia
    It depends on what you mean by "pushback." Yes, there are (diminishing) calls for them to be outlawed. But the more significant "pushback" is in more people wanting AR's. The AR has become the weapon of choice for both the bad actors and for those trying to oppose them. (Fill in your own definition as to who is who.)

    A common theme on left-wing forums is the need to arm up. You don't see nearly as many calls for gun control among the activist left these days. Everybody is equipping themselves with AR's as if there is no tomorrow.
     
  20. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    10,334
    Location:
    WNY
    There is a clear drop in support for gun control according to recent polls. What I mean is that the divide demonstrates that the antigun forces will focus on EBRs. I don't see them adopting the idea of buying guns to fight the forces they don't like. Yes, there are folks on the left and minority communities that are buying ARs. That is on the left's gun forums and by some of their groups. However, the major left politicians are still all for bans. Beto just reiterated his confiscation mantra in his campaign for TX Governor. But you are correct, the recent Politico article suggesting the Democrats need to alter their gun stance is evidence that there may be a change. Let's see if a major pol switches the rhetoric.
     
  21. BJung

    BJung Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2021
    Messages:
    341
    Location:
    California
    What kind of Shooter am I? I personally like bolt action military surplus rifles. I reload for some to find the best performance. For one, I've begun casting to find the most accurate load for the bullet I made that expands the best. After that, I'm ready to move onto another rifle or handgun. It's a great hobby. My ideal next rifle would be a rolling block or muzzle loader. I own a sks but have shot it to find accurate reloads. I never cared for AR15s but don't mind gun owners using them. It's their hobby and they are not bothering anyone.

    To me, those that want to restrict gun ownership also support or will not resist those that support disarming responsible gun owners. To them, when guns are gone, crime is gone. They don't address the problem of the criminals and negligent people who have or can own a firearm. Even then, these gun control people want to regulate ownership believing that the government will forever be lead by honest caring people. They also believe that the government is the dictating force and not the Citizenry. They don't address the proper solution that education in schools should be the 2nd Amendement and Responsibility. In this case it's proper gun use.

    It's my opinion that - generally - the fathers in the past were more accepting of gun use. What was taught to use from the past generation that our freedom to use our bb gun came with responsibility. We could get our bb gun confiscated by "Dad" if we were not handle that bbgun responsibly. Moms on the otherhand - generally - would want the bb gun to disappear. Atleast, they would discourage their use. And in this case Moms run single family homes and more of the Government. The solution to me is that Dad's that shoot need to speak up.

    As for divorce, I think Society has focused on being Happy in place of personally responsibility. Sure, our parents and grandparents believed in being Happy but the divorce rate is way higher now. Where I live, the divorce rate is high and I avoided dating any woman in the area and sought someone with better values. As a coworker explained to me, her wedding vow was "until death do you part" meant, until the happiness in the relationship died. If any of you reading this are parents, make sure your child experiences shooting a bbgun for fun. If she shoots more, the better so she'll like the sport. Otherwise, when you die, she'll just donate them your guns to the PD. That's what one neighbor did and a buddy in HS thinks his kids will probably do the same thing.
     
  22. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2008
    Messages:
    8,793
    Location:
    SE GA
    Interesting to see a forced political debate in a 6th grade class.
     
  23. DustyGmt

    DustyGmt Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,839
    Location:
    Green Mountains Vermont
    So what do have, what is the best argument to make against the "weapon of war" and "high capacity magazine clip" "30rds a second" crowd? It would be nice if we could all get behind a core narrative (the left has this down to a science and are a cohesive unit, as ignorant and short on facts as all get out, but still sticking to a consistent strategy so gotta give em that). What is our best move going forward. The "Hey it's just my modern sporting rifle" or "shall not be infringed period, from my cold dead hands" and "defense against tyranny" arguments aren't getting any traction so what's left? I personally like the "if you come for them, I will use them" sentiments.

    But honestly, how do you fight ignorance on the other side, facts and reality escapes these people.They can't be reasoned with. Personally, I'm not looking to give an inch, and I really wouldn't give a tinkers damn about magazines greater than 10rds, I train and am skilled enough to make very quick magazine changes and don't personally feel hobbled by this restriction, but I wouldn't give it up just so some lib can sleep better at night, on principle. I don't think compromise is a good strategy.
     
  24. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2020
    Messages:
    2,500
    Location:
    South central Ohio
    It's not. Never has been.
    It's really kind of the ingrained isolationism with a lot of folks, in that it's none of their concern until it affects them personally. We see it all the time with all sorts of issues. Too many people just don't give a damn until the problems show up at their door.

    Best strategy moving forward? At the rate we're going, probably distracting them with some endangered whales or malnourished pine trees or something.
     
    hq and DustyGmt like this.
  25. AlexanderA
    • Contributing Member

    AlexanderA Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    8,635
    Location:
    Virginia
    I've been saying that the "antigun forces" are not synonymous with "the left." The antigunners, for the most part, are middle class suburbanites naively motivated by "feelings." They are political centrists, or even apolitical regarding issues other than guns. They have made an ad hoc alliance with the Democratic Party, but that may change as the Democrats realize that gun control is a losing issue for them. (It's pretty clear that the Democrats' stance on guns is one of the reasons they lost the support of their erstwhile blue-collar base.)

    On the other hand, "the left" is neutral on guns and in some cases is even pro-gun. (Don't forget that Marx himself wrote that under no circumstances should the workers allow themselves to be disarmed.)

    As for Beto, he can't be elected to any office in Texas (or nationally, for that matter) because of his asinine statement on confiscating guns. And now, his doubling down on that has to be rated as political malpractice of the highest order. He's a pariah but he doesn't realize it yet.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice