Current issue 9mm ammo for FBI?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by lemaymiami, Jun 2, 2021.

  1. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Can anyone advise what the FBI’s current issue 9mm ammo is? Watched a TV show that mentioned it without specifics where they noted it was a much more effective round than we all used 25 years ago...
     
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  2. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

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    Hornady's 135gr Critical Duty
    https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/the-story-behind-the-fbi-new-duty-load/325989

    Note: the ballistic gelatin are showing penetration after a medium such as steel, wallboard, etc. the details are below each picture.
     
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  3. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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  4. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    Breechface beat me to it :thumbdown:.

    Stay safe.
     
  5. JCooperfan1911

    JCooperfan1911 Member

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    What load was the FBI using 25 years ago? Maybe this fella would know?

    16949-B05-08-FC-47-B5-9631-8-DAC2-A95-B94-D.jpg
     
  6. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd member

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    Aside from a casual referential perspective - and acknowledging that even a blind pig finds a truffle now and again - I think the FBI has seriously eroded their credibility in most anything side-arm related these past 30 or so years.

    I'm almost inclined to actually view their decisions with suspicion.

    I'd sincerely take the advice of Coast Guard, Border Patrol or Secret Service where there's a difference - over the FBI anymore.

    Todd.
     
  7. Thunderchicken
    • Contributing Member

    Thunderchicken Contributing Member

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  8. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    wow

    Sadly I can’t disagree.

    My ex wife was a Special Agent with a different agency and FBI wasn’t one of her favorites to work with. In fact, well that is probably putting it nicely.

    I wasn’t into shooting and guns when we were married. But I do recall ammo wasn’t an issue for her. I don’t recall if their practice ammo and carry ammo was different but don’t think so based on the way she stored it and used it as currency with local departments.

    Having dealt with many government contracts, I’d also take anything anyone says with a big grain of salt. Just because Hornaday has a contract doesn’t mean they have an exclusive, nor does it mean that other contract vehicles exist and can be used. So the reality is they could be using something today and something else tomorrow. Or if my ex was any indicator they could have boxes of who knows what laying around.
     
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  9. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd member

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    I once had something of a museum of ammunition devoted to the FBI's waffling on ammo. I just sort of backed into it due to past professional connections.

    They were all over the place in; .38/.357, 9mm, 10mm, .40 back to 9 and even re-visiting .38/.357.

    Sadly, so much of it had to do with P.C. considerations. After that, the motives seemed to be media-reactionary decisions and then of course.... *Beltway bandits* foisting their profiteering on the Bureau and its Agents.

    All to the greater shame of FBI Senior Leadership. A shame we've seen migrate well & truly beyond firearms in that once stellar organization.

    So, I see the FBI's manic attitude towards their greatest tool - other than the typewriter - as a harbinger of the downfall of their credibility and stature as the single greatest Law Enforcement entity that the world had ever seen.

    More's the pity.

    Todd.
     
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  10. crestoncowboy

    crestoncowboy Member

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    Just in the side arm related area?

    I actually shot their newer qualification course not long ago. I was pretty impressed by it. 90% of the department I was shooting with couldn't have passed it.
     
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  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Are you under the impression that the 9MM Glock pistols of the Coast Guard are loaded with something other than commercially-sourced ammunition that meets the FBI protocols?

    How about the new 9 MM Glocks of the Secret Service?

    Basis for that assertion?
     
  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Contracts have been let to Hornady, Winchester, and Vista. The last is for Federal ammo.
     
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  13. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd member

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    I know for a fact that the Coast Guard specifically ignored FBI guidance on their current items.

    Even if it ends up being coincidental - that is not a matter of taking the FBI's opinion as *gospel* as was always done in the past.

    Sharpshooting particular choices in no way negates the diminished stature of FBI endorsement.

    Todd.
     
  14. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    They issue Glock 9MM pistols.

    The ammo comes from a large combined USG contract. With one major exception, all 9MM ammo procured by the USG meets the same specs.

    To my knowledge, the USCG has never considered the findings of the FBI Academy as binding
     
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  15. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd member

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    OK, whatever.

    Why do you always have to go to the argument level of the picayune?

    If your *knowledge* included the fact that they specifically disregarded the FBI on the last round of deliberations - your drive-by devi'l's advocate nonsense would be more compelling.

    Good gawd.... How does one *ignore* a moderator?

    Todd.
     
  16. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    What round do you believe the Coast Guard uses now?

    Hint--it's the same as the FBI, the Secret Service. the Border Patrol, and the rest of DHS.
     
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  17. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    I spent 30 years with a Federal LE agency most of it as a firearms instructor. It seems to me that agencies tend to spread the wealth around rotating contracts to all the major manufacturers so everyone gets a piece of the pie.

    All in all I don't think there's much difference in terminal performance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
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  18. 1942bull
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    1942bull Contributing Member

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    Currently the FBI uses both Hornady and Winchester 9mm ammo.

    2018 Article from Guns.com (https://www.guns.com/news/2018/04/30/fbi-divides-35m-contract-to-three-ammo-companies) states:


     
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  19. UncleEd

    UncleEd Member

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    I suspect nearly any current HP 9mm
    on the market from Hornady, Winchester,
    Federal, Remington and a few others
    will get the job done, especially for
    a civilian trying to protect himself and
    family.

    When I saw the title of the thread I was
    very happy to see ApacheCoTodd's
    first response and then his second
    which expressed needed skepticism.

    Any way, next week the FBI may just
    pick another loading or caliber and
    handgun.
     
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  20. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd member

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    Your typically pedantic and snarky response does not even come close to addressing my point.

    I am bored with you. I can't tell if you are incapable of understanding the posts or are merely being pettily argumentative as usual.

    In any case, since there is no *ignore* option for moderators - consider this my last response to you in this thread.

    Todd.
     
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  21. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That may well be.

    The FBI recommendation that we have been discussing addresses particular loads that have been tested to meet or exceed performance specifications for minimum and maximum penetration in gel, with a number of specific barrier tests. Those include metal, auto glass, clothing, and wall board. There is also an expansion requirement.

    There are Hornady, Speer, and Winchester loads that meet the specs. Hornady's Critical Defense round does not. It fails one of the barrier tests. That does not dissuade me from carrying it--not for a moment

    The tests were designed to reflect real world conditions experienced in handgun encounters by law enforcement personnel.

    The FBI Training Academy at Quantico recommends ammunition that passes the tests for use by "agents and our law enforcement partners".

    The latter makes up by far the largest population of users.

    The Coast Guard has been mentioned. One might naturally assume that they would not be included in the FBI recommendation, but the Coast guard operates as part of Homeland Security, which buys most of the ammunition used by US Goverment civilian agencies.

    In any event, there are not a lot of choices. I know of no test protocols other than those of the FBI, and I know of no premium ammunition thtt is designed for other civilian requirements.

    There's a different story for the Army. Their new 9MM standard round is the FMJ M1152. Civilians can buy those from Winchester.

    For use where less penetration is desired, the Army issues the JHP M1153 round. I do not know anything about the performance specifications. They are not currently available to civilians.

    The chamber pressure for the new Army rounds is somewhat higher than industry standard.
     
  22. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    In 1986 I believe it was 115Gr. Winchester Silvertips....just before adopting the 10mm.
     
  23. UncleEd

    UncleEd Member

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    In the Miami shootout, the FBI seemed to claim the Silver Tip "failed"
    because after penetrating a perp's arm, it then entered the side
    of his chest and traveled inward but short of the heart.

    I've always thought the Silver Tip did its job but it was asking
    a lot to expect for penetration. So the 10mm was looked at
    and adopted---for a very short while.

    It seems the FBI is always looking for the magic bullet
    that just penetrates enough but not too much and not
    too little for the expected optimum shutdown of a
    foe. And it wants the bullet to penetrate hard and difficult
    surfaces and then "compute" just how far to go--
    but not too much--through softer bone and flesh.

    I don't think such a bullet will exist.

    The advice in a recent Wilson Combat video
    was "placement, placement, placement."
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  24. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That's what all defensive carriers want, and it is what the manufacturers strive for.

    That's why we have to accept compromises.

    Yep.
     
  25. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    The Silver Tip really did do the job it was asked to do at the time. It was a high speed, lightweight, rapidly expanding projectile, with shallow penetration. "Energy dump" was the theory of the day.

    Time and experience has proven that you generally need to hit something important for effectiveness, and the "energy dump" theory went by the wayside. Heavier projectiles, with deeper penetration became the norm.
     
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