Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by lemaymiami, Jun 2, 2021.
Hornady's 135gr Critical Duty
Note: the ballistic gelatin are showing penetration after a medium such as steel, wallboard, etc. the details are below each picture.
At least that’s what Hornady is saying.
It’s great defensive ammo, I’ve been to a few of their demos snd it seems to work like they advertise very consistently.,
I'm almost inclined to actually view their decisions with suspicion.
I'd sincerely take the advice of Coast Guard, Border Patrol or Secret Service where there's a difference - over the FBI anymore.
Sadly I can’t disagree.
My ex wife was a Special Agent with a different agency and FBI wasn’t one of her favorites to work with. In fact, well that is probably putting it nicely.
I wasn’t into shooting and guns when we were married. But I do recall ammo wasn’t an issue for her. I don’t recall if their practice ammo and carry ammo was different but don’t think so based on the way she stored it and used it as currency with local departments.
Having dealt with many government contracts, I’d also take anything anyone says with a big grain of salt. Just because Hornaday has a contract doesn’t mean they have an exclusive, nor does it mean that other contract vehicles exist and can be used. So the reality is they could be using something today and something else tomorrow. Or if my ex was any indicator they could have boxes of who knows what laying around.
I once had something of a museum of ammunition devoted to the FBI's waffling on ammo. I just sort of backed into it due to past professional connections.
They were all over the place in; .38/.357, 9mm, 10mm, .40 back to 9 and even re-visiting .38/.357.
Sadly, so much of it had to do with P.C. considerations. After that, the motives seemed to be media-reactionary decisions and then of course.... *Beltway bandits* foisting their profiteering on the Bureau and its Agents.
All to the greater shame of FBI Senior Leadership. A shame we've seen migrate well & truly beyond firearms in that once stellar organization.
So, I see the FBI's manic attitude towards their greatest tool - other than the typewriter - as a harbinger of the downfall of their credibility and stature as the single greatest Law Enforcement entity that the world had ever seen.
More's the pity.
Just in the side arm related area?
I actually shot their newer qualification course not long ago. I was pretty impressed by it. 90% of the department I was shooting with couldn't have passed it.
Are you under the impression that the 9MM Glock pistols of the Coast Guard are loaded with something other than commercially-sourced ammunition that meets the FBI protocols?
How about the new 9 MM Glocks of the Secret Service?
Basis for that assertion?
Contracts have been let to Hornady, Winchester, and Vista. The last is for Federal ammo.
I know for a fact that the Coast Guard specifically ignored FBI guidance on their current items.
Even if it ends up being coincidental - that is not a matter of taking the FBI's opinion as *gospel* as was always done in the past.
Sharpshooting particular choices in no way negates the diminished stature of FBI endorsement.
They issue Glock 9MM pistols.
The ammo comes from a large combined USG contract. With one major exception, all 9MM ammo procured by the USG meets the same specs.
To my knowledge, the USCG has never considered the findings of the FBI Academy as binding
Why do you always have to go to the argument level of the picayune?
If your *knowledge* included the fact that they specifically disregarded the FBI on the last round of deliberations - your drive-by devi'l's advocate nonsense would be more compelling.
Good gawd.... How does one *ignore* a moderator?
What round do you believe the Coast Guard uses now?
Hint--it's the same as the FBI, the Secret Service. the Border Patrol, and the rest of DHS.
All in all I don't think there's much difference in terminal performance.
2018 Article from Guns.com (https://www.guns.com/news/2018/04/30/fbi-divides-35m-contract-to-three-ammo-companies) states:
on the market from Hornady, Winchester,
Federal, Remington and a few others
will get the job done, especially for
a civilian trying to protect himself and
When I saw the title of the thread I was
very happy to see ApacheCoTodd's
first response and then his second
which expressed needed skepticism.
Any way, next week the FBI may just
pick another loading or caliber and
Your typically pedantic and snarky response does not even come close to addressing my point.
I am bored with you. I can't tell if you are incapable of understanding the posts or are merely being pettily argumentative as usual.
In any case, since there is no *ignore* option for moderators - consider this my last response to you in this thread.
That may well be.
The FBI recommendation that we have been discussing addresses particular loads that have been tested to meet or exceed performance specifications for minimum and maximum penetration in gel, with a number of specific barrier tests. Those include metal, auto glass, clothing, and wall board. There is also an expansion requirement.
There are Hornady, Speer, and Winchester loads that meet the specs. Hornady's Critical Defense round does not. It fails one of the barrier tests. That does not dissuade me from carrying it--not for a moment
The tests were designed to reflect real world conditions experienced in handgun encounters by law enforcement personnel.
The FBI Training Academy at Quantico recommends ammunition that passes the tests for use by "agents and our law enforcement partners".
The latter makes up by far the largest population of users.
The Coast Guard has been mentioned. One might naturally assume that they would not be included in the FBI recommendation, but the Coast guard operates as part of Homeland Security, which buys most of the ammunition used by US Goverment civilian agencies.
In any event, there are not a lot of choices. I know of no test protocols other than those of the FBI, and I know of no premium ammunition thtt is designed for other civilian requirements.
There's a different story for the Army. Their new 9MM standard round is the FMJ M1152. Civilians can buy those from Winchester.
For use where less penetration is desired, the Army issues the JHP M1153 round. I do not know anything about the performance specifications. They are not currently available to civilians.
The chamber pressure for the new Army rounds is somewhat higher than industry standard.
In 1986 I believe it was 115Gr. Winchester Silvertips....just before adopting the 10mm.
In the Miami shootout, the FBI seemed to claim the Silver Tip "failed"
because after penetrating a perp's arm, it then entered the side
of his chest and traveled inward but short of the heart.
I've always thought the Silver Tip did its job but it was asking
a lot to expect for penetration. So the 10mm was looked at
and adopted---for a very short while.
It seems the FBI is always looking for the magic bullet
that just penetrates enough but not too much and not
too little for the expected optimum shutdown of a
foe. And it wants the bullet to penetrate hard and difficult
surfaces and then "compute" just how far to go--
but not too much--through softer bone and flesh.
I don't think such a bullet will exist.
The advice in a recent Wilson Combat video
was "placement, placement, placement."
That's what all defensive carriers want, and it is what the manufacturers strive for.
That's why we have to accept compromises.
The Silver Tip really did do the job it was asked to do at the time. It was a high speed, lightweight, rapidly expanding projectile, with shallow penetration. "Energy dump" was the theory of the day.
Time and experience has proven that you generally need to hit something important for effectiveness, and the "energy dump" theory went by the wayside. Heavier projectiles, with deeper penetration became the norm.
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