Current issue 9mm ammo for FBI?

[dogtown tom]

I know for a fact that the Coast Guard specifically ignored FBI guidance on their current items....

Source for this fact?

 

[jmr40]

A few years ago I seem to remember the FBI touting a 147 gr HP at around 1000 fps as what they considered the ideal compromise. I don't recall any particular bullet or manufacturer being pushed. What happened to that idea?

From what I've seen in penetration tests this looks like a promising idea. I know that initial 147 gr bullets had a reputation for poor expansion but had read that problem had been solved.

 

[fastbolt]

Contracts have been let to Hornady, Winchester, and Vista. The last is for Federal ammo.

Yep.

FBI divides $35M contract among three ammo companies

https://www.guns.com/news/2018/04/30/fbi-divides-35m-contract-to-three-ammo-companies#:~:text=The big three ammo companies — Hornady Manufacturing,,and frangible ammunition,” according to April 2 announcement.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/co...ral-premium-contract-for-training-ammunition/

Since the transition from .40 to 9 was expected to take some time, Winchester got the .40 contract a couple years ago, too.

https://www.concealedcarry.com/news/winchester-contract-fbi-ammunition-supplier/

 

[Kleanbore]

We understand that DHS has contracted with Vista (for Speer) and with Sig Sauer for 9MM ammunition--the same kinds that meet the FBI protocol.

DHS may have other suppliers also.

They buy a lot of ammunition for Government agencies

 

[C-grunt]

The Silver Tip really did do the job it was asked to do at the time. It was a high speed, lightweight, rapidly expanding projectile, with shallow penetration. "Energy dump" was the theory of the day.

Time and experience has proven that you generally need to hit something important for effectiveness, and the "energy dump" theory went by the wayside. Heavier projectiles, with deeper penetration became the norm.

Yep. I read an article a while back that interviewed one of the head guys of the FBI firearms training unit at the time of the FBI shootout. He said the 115 grain Silvertip did exactly what it was supposed to do. The theory at the time was you wanted something that opened fast and big. Penetration wasnt a big factor as the thinking of the time was shooting someone straight on in the chest. You didn't need a lot of penetration to hit the vitals from frontal shots.

It wasn't until after the Miami gunfight that they looked at real world shootings and noted that bullets many times have to take odd angles or go through limbs (or both) to reach the vitals.

 

[+P+]

I once had something of a museum of ammunition devoted to the FBI's waffling on ammo. I just sort of backed into it due to past professional connections.

They were all over the place in; .38/.357, 9mm, 10mm, .40 back to 9 and even re-visiting .38/.357.

Sadly, so much of it had to do with P.C. considerations. After that, the motives seemed to be media-reactionary decisions and then of course.... *Beltway bandits* foisting their profiteering on the Bureau and its Agents.

All to the greater shame of FBI Senior Leadership. A shame we've seen migrate well & truly beyond firearms in that once stellar organization.

So, I see the FBI's manic attitude towards their greatest tool - other than the typewriter - as a harbinger of the downfall of their credibility and stature as the single greatest Law Enforcement entity that the world had ever seen.

More's the pity.

Todd.

This is actually very interesting. This is my first post here, but if you ever feel inclined to go into more specific detail on the matter, I’d sure be interested to learn a thing or two.

 

[Palladan44]

The 3 things I value in my 9mm rounds:

A)Bonded jacket to prevent separation

B)Polymer tipped to prevent clogging of cavity

C) Contains at least some silver in case of any Werewolfs........you never know

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Well, without bashing anybody and keeping strictly to the matter of weapons choices, it's kind of important to remember a few things: The FBI, like any other bureaucratic organization, buys from approved vendors and has to follow Federal purchasing guidleines; the FBI was established primarily to diminish the influence of organized crime; and, nearly every "great success" of the Bureau has actually been accomplished by local LEO's using local resources and local informants. To summarize: How the anti-crime units of city, state and rural municipal officers are armed is way more important than how the FBI's special agents are armed. The locals do the real work in the field, typically.

Unfortunately, the former follows the latter instead of correctly having the latter follow the former.

 

[Kleanbore]

The FBI, like any other bureaucratic organization, buys from approved vendors and has to follow Federal purchasing guidleines;

Yes, and it is they who specify the product and they who approve the vendors.

the FBI was established primarily to diminish the influence of organized crime

That is an oversimplification, and it is irrelevant.

How the anti-crime units of city, state and rural municipal officers are armed is way more important than how the FBI's special agents are armed.

That is true. The FBI develops the specifications for "agents and our law enforcement partners", and it is the large customer base of the latter that provides the economies of scale to enable the several suppliers to expect a return on their investments in the design, development, testing, and tooling necessary to provide the approved ammunition.

Unfortunately, the former follows the latter instead of correctly having the latter follow the former

Come again?

Does anyone really believe that there is any city, state, municipal, or rural police department that is funded, staffed, equipped, and facilitized to do the research, analysis, and testing necessary to develop the specifications or to approve product submitted for acceptance? No. The FBI Training academy at Quantico does that for all the departments.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Yes, and it is they who specify the product and they who approve the vendors.

That is an oversimplification, and it is irrelevant.

That is true. The FBI develops the specifications for "agents and our law enforcement partners", and it is the large customer base of the latter that provides the economies of scale to enable the several suppliers to expect a return on their investments in the design, development, testing, and tooling necessary to provide the approved ammunition.

Come again?

Does anyone really believe that there is any city, state, municipal, or rural police department that is funded, staffed, equipped, and facilitized to do the research, analysis, and testing necessary to develop the specifications or to approve product submitted for acceptance? No. The FBI Training academy at Quantico does that for all the departments.

The word you're looking for is "facilitated."

 

[cslinger]

The 3 things I value in my 9mm rounds:

A)Bonded jacket to prevent separation

B)Polymer tipped to prevent clogging of cavity

C) Contains at least some silver in case of any Werewolfs........you never know

This is not on you just how my warped brain works. I read that and was waiting to get to D) is .45 inch in diameter. I don’t know why I read it that way in my head but that and your silver made me chuckle.

Back to the regularly scheduled discussion. Keep in mind Hornady duty ammo tends to favor penetration over expansion as far as I have seen and that makes sense in a duty format with the high probability of shooting through a barrier.

 

[Kleanbore]

The word you're looking for is "facilitated."

Not really.

"Facilitated" means "made possible".

I used a probably incorrect word from my corporate and DoD past that relates to having in place the facilities, plant and equipment, laboratories, etc.needed to do something.

It was coined for economy of words. Government proposals are usually page or word limited.

The word "incentivize", which now appears in dictionaries, came about in the same manner, beginning in the WWII era in contracting.

 

[DR505]

Point of order: the FBI Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) has moved to Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, AL. They are not at the academy in Quantico any longer. They have a custom made facility there rather than the modular buildings located along the ranges at QT.

When I retired we were primarily issuing Critical Duty 135 gr +p to agents. The Glock 19M was the standard issue sidearm. The Speer Gold Dot G2 147 gr ammo was also authorized for carry and we still had plenty in stock.

The FBI issues a RFP outlining all testing requirements for ammunition. There are NDAs executed for all of the testers so that they do not divulge what companies provided ammo for the test. If an ammunition does not get selected, the FBI will not even mention that it was tested. Many other agencies piggyback off the contract. There is usually a separate purchase of practice ammo that ballistically mimics the chosen duty ammo with regard to POI when fired from the service weapons, but it does not need to meet the testing standards for barrier penetration, etc.

 

[Kleanbore]

Thanks for the excellent addition, DR.

 

[golden]

What really matters with the FBI and probably every other law enforcement organization is not penetration, not expansion, BUT PERCENTAGES OF OFFICERS QUALIFYING!

My agency issued the .357 magnum ammo when I started. We used 110 grain ammo because we were issued S&W model 13's and they did not hold up to the higher velocity 125 grain ammo used in the RUGER'S we also issued.
We had adopted the .357 ammo after a number of failures with the 110 grain .38 Special +P+ round and it became unpopular in the field and it was replaced with the .357. No complaints from the field.

Next, we went to the .40 S&W, using a 155 grain jhp at 1200 fps. GREAT LOAD. NO COMPLAINTS AT ALL ABOUT STOPPING POWER. Many people complained however about the gun we were issued, the BERETTA 96D Brigadier. It was a super reliable, very accurate gun, but was as big and bulkier than the old army 1911 .45ACP pistols. Almost everyone complained about the size of this gun, it was hard to conceal and some found the recoil to be too much.
We kept the ammo, but had to replace the BERETTA'S, as the ammo beat them apart. My last issued BERETTA had the locking lugs so warn, I could watch the slide go back and forth, when I shot it.

Then we went to the H&K P-2000. A very reliable, much more compact and lighter gun, that could also rust. We then switched to a 135 grain grain bullet at 1200 fps. Easier on the guns, but still problems qualifying. This round also still had a bright flash and was noisy. It recoiled less, but was still a problem.
Then we went to the 180 grain FEDERAL HST load. No complaints from the field, but still problems qualifying. This is a relatively mild load, but top performing. Again, no complaints from the field.

Now we are back to the 9m.m. and using the WINCHESTER 147 grain jhp. Even in a GLOCK 19 (a light pistol), the recoil is controllable. So for the FBI, HOMELAND SECURITY and everyone else using the 9m.m., recoil counts more than size.
I have both 9m.m. and .40 caliber pistols in the same make and model and I prefer to shoot 9m.m. over .40 caliber. It is just less taxing.

Jim

 

[dogtown tom]

My last issued BERETTA had the locking lugs so warn

Do you mean locking block?

I could watch the slide go back and forth, when I shot it....

And I'm pretty positive the slide goes back and forth on every semiautomatic handgun when its fired.

 

[RETG]

Locking block lug worn? (Beretta actually calls it a "central block)" If not lubricated properly, the lug could wear prematurely.

I have shot thousands of rounds with a few Beretta PX4s (9mm and .40) and never noted any excessive wear on the locking block lug or the block or barrel. But I do use a small dab of grease vs. oil.

 

[JTQ]

Locking block lug worn? (Beretta actually calls it a "central block)" If not lubricated properly, the lug could wear prematurely.

Forum member golden and dogtown tom are talking about the Beretta 90 Series of guns and not the PX4.

 

[RETG]

Y
Does anyone really believe that there is any city, state, municipal, or rural police department that is funded, staffed, equipped, and facilitized to do the research, analysis, and testing necessary to develop the specifications or to approve product submitted for acceptance? No. The FBI Training academy at Quantico does that for all the departments.

True, I cannot think of any entity other than another Federal agency or two. But I would wonder if there are some large PDs such as NY, LA, etc., that might do some serious research. Maybe someone on here knows.

 

[RETG]

Forum member golden and dogtown tom are talking about the Beretta 90 Series of guns and not the PX4.

That's right, they make other guns.

To quote the kid at the store....MY BAD!

I've lived too long with PX4s, and H&Ks. Need to get out more.

 

[golden]

DOG,

Maybe you have better vision than I do, because except for this BERETTA, I have never been able to clearly see the slide move back and forth. In every other gun, it was a blur from the shooting position.

Jim

 

[Leon tP]

The 3 things I value in my 9mm rounds:

A)Bonded jacket to prevent separation

B)Polymer tipped to prevent clogging of cavity

C) Contains at least some silver in case of any Werewolfs........you never know

I like the way you think Palladan44, number three is vitally important

 

[DR505]

C) Contains at least some silver in case of any Werewolfs........you never know

I think the plural of werewolf is werewolves...

 

[gnappi]

I'm still amazed that peeps give a hoot what Bambi secret agent can handle.

 

[DR505]

I'm still amazed that peeps give a hoot what Bambi secret agent can handle.

You need to get with the program; everyone must bow down at the altar of diversity or be banished.