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Currently manufactured double rifles

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Frostbite, May 26, 2021.

  1. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    A gorgeous piece of Ballistic Jewelry but a rifle the weight of a pistol does not seem "properly scaled."
    I would be willing to test the concept, though.
     
  2. George P

    George P member

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    Here it is next to a 12GA SxS:
    hw_cont.m52p14g3.jpg
    and a closeup of the engraving:
    hw_cont.m52p14g14.jpg

    Would take a large Lotto winning ticket and a few years waiting
     
  3. George P

    George P member

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    And no one mentioned George Hoenig's rotary action double rifle:


    A truly unique design by the man who created the most precise stock duplicating machine
     
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  4. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    There is one for sale at Champlin. $25000+
     
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  5. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob member

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    They're mechanically interesting, but it seems very cumbersome to manipulate. I can't see much penetration into the DG market setup like that, and the market for non-DG doubles is obviously somewhat limited.
     
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  6. George P

    George P member

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    Personally, I think they are mechanically amazing at their strength, simplicity and quality of manufacturing.
    I would have loved to have picked up a 28 gauge I saw for sale once.
     
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  7. George P

    George P member

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    Not at all, simply twist a 1/4 turn and slide forward; reverse to get ready to shoot.
     
  8. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    The only thing ridiculous with my comment is that a guy with your obvious lack of experience with double rifles would think what I said was “ridiculous”. You’ve obviously spent very little or more likely zero time shooting a heavy recoiling two trigger double rifle.

    Start reading through the comments here about rear trigger or front trigger first and trigger “strumming” in recoil. It’s a very real thing that ANYBODY who’s spent time shooting a larger double knows about and is fully aware of.

    https://www.africahunting.com/threads/double-rifle-triggers.23060/
     
  9. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Fortunately I have not encountered trigger strumming with my double trigger Verney Carron 12 ga or my friend's P. Webley .450 BPE. I am good for about a pair and a half - 3 shots - with that .450 before I remember my flinch.
     
  10. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob member

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    You continue to be wrong. And I have way more than enough experience with doubles to know you're wrong. if you place you finger on the front trigger and fire, it will not magically teleport to be back trigger. That is superstitious nonsense. If the second barrel fires while your finger is on the front trigger, that is a failure of the lockwork and this can be proved easily enough with a test fixture. The idea that the shooter somehow "holding it wrong" is the cause of such a gun failure might be a good line if you're a manufacturer of six figure guns that don't work right talking to an inbred member of the British aristocracy, but it's not something anyone with any clue is going to take seriously.

    If you look in the thread you linked, you'd have had it explained correctly to you (emphasis mine):
    He is fundamentally correct, although sadly it is not only cheap and old doubles that have problems. Merkel will happily charge you $20K+ for a brand new rifle with faulty lockwork.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2021
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  11. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob member

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    I'd have to see one in person, but it looks awkward in the video.
     
  12. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    The finger does not “magically” teleport to the rear trigger folks. A strum AKA trigger bounce is caused by an ill fitting rifle usually one with too long a length of pull or a weak grip usually with a new shooter who’s not accustomed to heavy recoil. The shooter subconsciously partially releases their trigger hand in recoil then re grabs the rifle snagging the rear trigger. I’ve seen it done dozens of times, I’ve done it myself on occasion.anybody who’s spent any time around big bore doubles is familiar with it and most have done it.

    If you firmly grip the forend with a full grip you’ll have less doubling episodes. That’s a fact for those of you interested in double rifles and shooting technique. Far and away the most common cause of doubling shooter error. I’ve seen it done on multiple makes and models including guns with intercepting sears.

    I’ve also seen gun malfunction and mechanically double. They are far less common.

    https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/10915776/Double_rifle,_front_trigger_fi
     
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  13. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob member

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    This is a strange and magical superstition. If you grasp the rifle normally, put your finger on the front trigger, and pull you will not strum, bump, cajole, teleport to, or psychically influence the rear trigger. As quoted above in the thread you yourself linked, it simply does not happen. Your finger remains on the front trigger. If the second barrel goes off, that is failed lockwork plain and simple.

    The obvious question, when trying to figure out if your rifle suffered a mechanical failure, is "did I get the same number of shots as triggers I pulled?"

    Since you keep linking to random things on the internet, I will keep pointing out that they repeatedly reinforce that I'm right. Like this little gem from that 24 hour campfire thread:
    See, it's funny - when you fix the mechanical problem rather than engaging in superstition, the problem goes away :D When you don't fix the mechanical problem, everyone can stand around and accuse each other of holding it wrong, but at the end of the day the gun will still double.

    People elsewhere are telling you the EXACT same things I'm trying to explain to you. There's a reason for that.
     
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  14. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    The problem here is that there is no way to prove or disprove by continuing this conversation with you Bob. With that being said people are welcome to listen to you if they choose to. A guy who doesn’t own, operate, shoot or hunt with a double of any kind. Or they can start shooting them and talking to people who do and find out for themselves.

    In any case if I were buying a new factory double in the low end of the pack. I’d look real hard at Chapuis. I’d stay away from a Merkle although not all Merkles have issues with mechanical doubling. And most likely I’d save up my money and buy a Heym 88 or preferably a Heym 89.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
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  15. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob member

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    It is actually very EASY to prove if a two trigger rifle (or shotgun) doubling is caused by the shooter. Anyone can do it. Load one round in the front trigger barrel (right for standard right hand guns) and a snap cap in the 2nd barrel, fire the rifle, and see if the shooter's finger somehow ends up on the back trigger. If it does, then you can blame the shooter. If the shooter's finger remains on the front trigger but the second lock fires, well...

    I have plenty of experience with double rifles and have owned and shot several. You've simply been caught spreading a superstition and it's not working because you keep linking to threads where people are telling you exactly what I'm telling you :D That's because we're all telling you facts.

    I've probably debugged something like 20 doubling two-trigger guns at this point. All but one were magnum 12 and 10 ga shotguns (the other was a Merkel rifle), but since the recoil between the big shotguns and say a 450NE is about the same it's the same phenomenon. Not a single one was caused by the shooter, although several shooters had been incorrectly told otherwise by the superstitious. Every single gun could be made to double in a rest and did so before requiring repair. None doubled after repair, although a couple were retired to wall hangers due to soft steel in the locks. Interestingly enough the Merkel had some kind of safety mechanism on the left lock. It was still faulty.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
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  16. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    Llama,

    You have not proven or disproven anything. You’ve done nothing more than make a claim. As I mentioned above this “conversation” will not accomplish anything more than you said or I said. So let’s leave it at that

    For anyone interested, If you ever are going to buy a heavy double learn to shoot it properly and it will be a much better experience.
     
  17. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Is this even trigger order a resolvable argument? I mean a quick search of several dangerous/African game focused forums and blogs seems to point to the order of trigger operation on a double-trigger SxS rifle seems to be as controversial and unsettled at the old Chevy vs Ford, or S&W vs Colt arguments. In about twenty minutes of reading I did not see any real consensus. My own experience with SxS rifles is negligible though I have read a fair bit about and even shop for one fairly seriously until a certain redhead came along. I do own a double trigger SxS shotgun and I have always select the trigger that fits the shot since my right barrel is a modified and the left barrel full. Typical though I shoot front trigger to back but that is because the critter is usually trying to get away from my wile pursuits :p so shooting the full chock second makes sense.
     
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  18. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob member

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    I'm just stating facts here. If you want to imagine teleporting fingers that's your business, but you'll excuse me for not indulging you. The reality is that a correctly functioning double rifle (or shotgun), you pull one trigger and get one barrel. Any prospective double owner would be wise to hold the gun to that standard with no deviations tolerated. If it doesn't meet the standard, I've provided two procedures (load one & fire and firing from a rest clearly actuating the front trigger, with a string if need be)) that will clearly show what is going on. Again, these tests are factual rather than mystical and will clearly show you why the rifle did what it did. Anyone with a doubling problem can do them with minimal equipment and see for themselves.
     
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  19. Skoghund

    Skoghund Member

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    IMG_20200214_131619.jpg My Merkel 60E sidelock 20 bore with extra 8x57jrs barrels. It now wears a Schmidt & Bender 1-8x24 Exos scope in factory fitted claw mounts. Its has a 20bore action as opposed to the 160E double rifle that has a 28 bore action. Home loaded ammo. A mono bullet, and a Sierra pro hunter round. A great rifle for driven hunting.
    P7100167.JPG P7090164.JPG 004.jpg 005.jpg 005.jpg
     
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  20. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob member

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    There is some confusion, but it stems from a mix of superstition, and the fact that a HIGH percentage of double rifles (i'd guess maybe 25-30%) are in fact mechanically faulty. This includes many that come from very prestigious makes. Rather than accept that they have a 5 or 6 figure gun with faulty lockwork, people try to convince themselves that there is some song and dance or special grip they can do to avoid the problem. If only one lock is faulty, there is indeed such a dance - they can fire the faulty lock first. But that doesn't change the fact that it's faulty, and probably not drop safe to boot. This is why you will find people who swear rifles double if you fire front-first, and others who swear they double if they fire rear-first. Because that's the way the guns in question happen to be faulty.

    Ideally a double rifle, like a double shotgun, should be able to fire the triggers in either order giving the option for a selectable soft/solid combination. However most manufacturer manuals recommend front trigger first because they set the second trigger heavier in an attempt to hedge against mechanical failure.
     
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  21. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    There really is no controversy on what trigger to pull first with a properly functioning rifle and shooter who understands the intricacies of shooting a big bore double. Either is fine.

    When I’m hunting DG I place a soft point in the right barrel and a solid in the left barrel. I can choose to fire either first depending on the situation. If I’m in thick brush in elephant country I carry two solids then switch the right barrel for a soft once I get into Buffalo. If I’ve got a hard quartering shot I’ll pull the back trigger first using the solid. That’s the beauty of a double. It gives load options without reloading the rifle.

    The whole controversy about which trigger to pull first is about new or untrained shooters not strumming the rear trigger during the recoil pulse. There is also some controversy about regulation and which trigger is pulled first but that’s a misunderstanding, regulation doesn’t change depending on what trigger is pulled first. Or at least it doesn’t change enough to matter.

    When I let people who’ve never shot a double before shoot one of mine I just tell them to shoot rear trigger first. Otherwise they have a chance of doubling the gun and that’s not fun. I’ve seen it done multiple times with new shooters.

    One of the ways you can tell if it was a mechanical failure or shooter error is by the length of pause or lack thereof between the shots. A mechanical failure produces an almost or instantaneous second shot. There is generally a very short pause when a guy strums the second trigger.
     
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  22. mcb

    mcb Member

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    This seems reasonable and sort of what I would expect. Your use of loading both a soft-point and solid is akin to my selection of chokes in my shotgun, selection by which trigger is pulled and seems like one of the obvious advantages to a double-trigger double rifle or shotgun.

    Out of curiosity are single-trigger double-rifles common and do they have a way to select which barrel? All of my O/U shotguns are single trigger guns but all have some means to select which barrel fires first. The safety is also the selector on two guns and a small lever on the trigger above where you finger rests to pull allows selection of which barrel on the third.

    I have never had my shotgun double I have purposely doubled it a couple just to see what its like but even two 3-inch 12 gauge heavy hunting loads is significantly less recoil than a big bore rifle doubling and probable less than a single round with some of the more powerful double gun cartridges. -ramblin'
     
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  23. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    There are some single trigger selective barrel double rifles out there. But doubles and double shooters are steeped in tradition and are weird about things that are non traditional, so you don’t see a lot of them. Honestly most neophyte double shooters would probably be better off with a single trigger gun.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
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  24. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    IMG_2103.JPG

    Westley Richards made a lot of hay over their single trigger doubles. Other makes had them, but WR really pushed them.
    See Greener for discussion of the "three pull" early single trigger.

    That isn't a .577 in the catalog cut, though. Rimless, which WR also touted trick extractors for.

    There was a gentlemen's club, The .577 Associates. Members were expected to have a .577 cartridge on their persons at all times. If you could not show your round, you had to stand drinks.

    See Jeff Cooper's article 'Crumpler.'
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
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  25. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    So, my dream of a single trigger double rifle with a quick detachable Trijicon on top is not as foolish as I thought. I'm happy :)

    Not wealthier, but I have a stupid big smile on my face.

    I have learned a whole lot with this thread. Thank you guys, THR is a wonderful place, full of savvy people and enablers...
     
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