Customize defensive firearms?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Hanzo581, Jun 7, 2017.

?

What is ok or not ok with customizing defense weapons?

  1. Anything goes, I don't worry about it

    25 vote(s)
    26.9%
  2. Customizing is fine, but not on the trigger

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Customizing is fine, but no aggressive statements/symbols

    39 vote(s)
    41.9%
  4. No customizing of defensive weapons outside of grips and sights

    22 vote(s)
    23.7%
  5. No customizing at all

    7 vote(s)
    7.5%
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  1. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    My search skills seem to be lacking, I am sure this has been covered before but...how do you feel about customizing personal defense weapons?

    I am pretty far from a guy that worries too much about perception, but in this case I would not want anything functional changed on a gun I may have to use for personal defense. To me, using your lightened upgraded trigger, for example, against you in your civil lawsuit seems like a real possibility. But there is also visual customization such as an AR dust cover with F**k You printed on it, or Punisher logos, skulls etc that could be brought up.

    So, what do you think?
     
    JO JO likes this.
  2. JO JO

    JO JO Member

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    I would think its a bad Idea , think about it somehow you carry piece falls out of you holster in a movie theater you gun goes off kills a child sitting in front of you, in court you say yes your honor I removed the factory trigger and installed BUBBA's improved lighter better trigger myself ,the add in the magazine and the you tube video said its an improved design better then the factory installed parts,
    I bet now you will go to jail for murder , I bet even if you used this weapon for self defense the prosecutor would say you modified a weapon and twist it around to premeditated murder,
    I feel sporting guns are different then a survival gun/tool , and modern firearms are very dependable in todays age, I for sure have no use for a modified gun with a hair trigger I have seen too many guns dropped and or carried in rough conditions to have an un - safe weapon
    IMHO
     
  3. Acera

    Acera Member

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    If you justly defend your life within the limits of the laws in your area, it should not matter what you use, whether it's a gun, weed wacker, ice pick, or a HRC sign.

    I changed the connector in my Glock to reduce the trigger pull down to 3.5 pounds, have not lost a minute of sleep over it.



    .
     
  4. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    I don't abide by the aggressive junk anyway, and though I cuss as a common and frequent part of my vernacular, I don't put that kind of thing on my firearms.

    Outside of collectors items, I don't own a firearm which hasn't been modified in some way. More often than not, anything I bring home doesn't go straight into the safe - it goes beside the work bench until it gets cleaned up, properly lubricated, deburred and polished internally.

    In my experience, there are three reasons people stand against customization of defensive pistols, none of which I believe make sense, and have never been used to establish premeditation in any legal case, but for which I'm certain this thread is about to draw plenty of "evidence" and an abundance of opinionated support:

    1) The presumption factory state is the most reliable state. Only a poor gunsmith leaves a customized pistol in lower function than when he found it. This stance is foolish, in my opinion. Modifications should INCREASE performance of the firearm, without sacrificing functional reliability - if it does anything less, it's NOT an appropriate modification. I've never found, in over 20yrs of paying other smiths work and being paid for it myself off and on for 15yrs, any reason to think a factory condition is the most reliable or most serviceable condition. Since this thread originated in the Zevtech Glock thread, I might point out I have had bone stock, factory delivered Glocks come into my shop which had the same trigger bar issues and trigger block safety issues as described (and berated) in that thread.

    2) Customization could be misconstrued as premeditation. Doesn't happen, has never happened in a civilian defensive shooting scenario. The references are about to start pouring from other posters about LEO liability assumptions and ND's where lightened triggers were fired unintentionally. A civilian shouldn't be holding a firearm trained on an assailant, so many offensive LEO paradigms, such as those which drove design changes like the "NYC Triggers," have little to no applicability in civilian defense scenarios.

    3) Customization costs money, and if I ever had my defensive pistol confiscated after a shooting, I don't want to have much money invested. It sounds great in theory, but what dollar value do you assign to your life? If the decision were ever forced upon me, I'd be willing to barter a heck of a lot more than $300 to keep a hold on my mortal life.

    I CAN - however - fully support the paradigm in which under-knowledged and under-skilled folks should not be performing gunsmithing modifications. If an owner doesn't know how to function test "Bubba's enhanced drop in trigger," he shouldn't be installing it, as he has no way to know whether the installation was successful or not. So the problem isn't with the modification itself, but rather with the "modifier."
     
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  5. Mn Fats

    Mn Fats Member

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    You assess your situation properly, then customize what suits your particular scenario to give you the advantage. This is why I voted "anything goes".
     
  6. Wisco

    Wisco member

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    I wouldn't put anything on a gun I wouldn't want a prosecutor or jury to see.

    Any functional modifications are good go. Any self defense shooting will include an affirmative defense anyway - I meant to shoot because I had to. I won't be claiming an accident or negligence.
     
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  7. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Function gunsmithing to make a 100% reliable and accurate firearm with ideal ergonomics is important in a life saving device. Over lightening a trigger is foolish, tuning one for solid perfromance only makes sense.
     
  8. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    I'd have no issues modifying a defense piece for the purpose of enhancing its value as such a piece. This could include things like better sights, better grips/stocks, and, yes, a better trigger. I would not sweat a trigger that's been lightened as long as I never make the claim I didn't mean to shoot someone who I, in fact, did actually shoot. Lightened-trigger issues usually only come up legally when there is a claim that "the gun just went off" or something similar made by someone who is saying they did not intend at that moment to fire it.

    I also have no desire to dress any of my guns with anything that would likely be considered hostile or aggressive, unless the American Flag, Florida State Flag, or similar symbols of patriotism count as aggressive or hostile (to date, I've not "dressed" any of my weapons with anything.)
     
  9. JO JO

    JO JO Member

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    I agree if done by a quality gunsmith and safety checked is one thing, but many cut corners to save cost example I over heard a gun store counter guy tell a customer "If you replace this spring with one from a ball point pen you will have an improved trigger" and I bet someone would believe him or many of the do it your self videos on you tube this is in my opinion unsafe and foolish,
     
  10. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I have a few that are 100% out of the box stock. Some I have carried are quite custom, not with graphics or print but things that enhance their performance or comfort, to me.

    I worry about it about the same as I do my own ammunition.

    I long ago asked myself if I needed anything for self defense and in so using it to save my life, would the thought that someone might think it was over the top stop me? I answered no. Doesn't matter if it's a bobbed 1911 with a beaver tail grip safety, a 1 ton dully truck, garden hoe, they are all tools at that point, nothing more, nothing less.
     
  11. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    My defensive firearms consist of several Glocks with night sights, a shield 9, and a very basic AR carbine with an aimpoint 5000 and a cheap surefire. All loaded with US made off the shelf federal hollow points. Hard to argue about what I'm using since its essentially what the cops use. After all, they are the experts.
     
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  12. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    I would certainly have a Punisher logo on my firearms. If such accessories were made for what I currently carry. But they don't. I am not worried about it. I have enough experience behind a trigger to show I am not "overly aggressive." I also have enough experience being in a court room setting to not be run around by a half wit prosecutor who doesn't know a gun muzzle from their own.
     
  13. Mn Fats

    Mn Fats Member

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    ^ Punisher logo was painted on by a seal team. 3? To have that on YOUR rifle would be tacky. Unworthy. Lets emulate a known seals battle logo on our rifle, then go punch paper.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
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  14. stoky

    stoky Member

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    It shouldn't, but it might. Reality can be one thing, and what is presented in court can deviate substantially. I wouldn't want to handicap my attorney, or give a prosecutor an edge.
    Reaper grips, for example, are the kind of thing that would look bad in court, and offer net zero functional advantage.
    Such things would constrain the gun to a range toy for me.
    ymmv
     
  15. Ironicaintit

    Ironicaintit Member

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    I see no problem with modifications that improve the platform.
    What that means to the individual is totally up in the air, though.

    Make it shiny, make it dull, dehorn it, new grips, sights, or whatever floats your boat.

    To me, it means reliability and ease of use.

    Myself, I've only made changes to address what I saw as shortcomings. On my BHP, I added hogue grips because I couldn't stand the factory mkIII versions, and removed the magazine safety. The trigger is vastly improved, without really breaking any lighter than it did prior. Because of those changes, I like it a lot better and have greater confidence in it, and with myself wielding it. It didn't need anything else IMO, because the platform is awesome to begin with.


    The only things I would strongly recommend against:
    1. very light, "hair triggers" because of the increased odds of a ND, obviously.
    2. words or pictures engraved, that may convey the point to a jury that you were itching for the opportunity to bust a cap. Probably not a great idea to paint yourself as a vigilante.
     
  16. Acera

    Acera Member

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    So stoky, if I happen to shoot someone of a particular non-christian religion of middle eastern decent in a justified situation, the fact that the AR I use is a Spikes 'Crusader' will land me in hot water because of the logo on the side of my AR? Your argument is laughable to me and how many folks believe this urban legend.


    .
     
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  17. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    Um...just because a SEAL team used the Punisher logo doesn't mean someone else can't. I understand not using specific military logos if you aren't part of that unit or have served, but they don't own the rights to a Marvel comic book characters logo.
     
  18. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    Dang, I left this out of the poll options but this is another big one.

    "and he even circumvented a manufacturer safety on his firearm!"

    No thanks.
     
  19. Mn Fats

    Mn Fats Member

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    ^^ if someone wants to paint a "punisher" logo on their rifle that defines vengeance, and what a seal team did to their equipment, fine. Anyone can use it without false valor. Just looks like wannabes imo. Unless your putting it on there to let critters and paper know you mean business.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
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  20. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Punisher logo has been used by tons of combat units. When my last unit rotated through Iraq in 2006 it was on everything. From weapons, to armor, to vehicles. Their ROE gave them leeway to really reduce the number of actionable forces in the area. And they used very little explosives from artillery or airstrikes to reduce collateral damage. While I like the Punisher from Marvel, it is more homage to my unit.
     
  21. Mn Fats

    Mn Fats Member

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    If your a civilian and paint on that skull that's been used by "tons of combat units" you know what your doing. Posing. Im way off topic and apologize.
     
  22. Alte Schule

    Alte Schule Member

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    Usually just grips and sights for me but If I think it is necessary I will drop a spring kit in any pistol I buy.
     
  23. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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  24. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    Don't have much use for "aggressive statements/symbols" on my guns and wouldn't pay to have it added to any of them either. If modifying my guns for reasons of more reliable and/or enhanced performance (trigger job, better sights, etc.), then I would have the work done or do it myself.
     
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  25. Ironicaintit

    Ironicaintit Member

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    I wrestled with myself about removing the magazine disconnect, for just that reason.
    If I ever have a ND while the magazine is out, and someone gets hurt, I may be up the proverbial creek.

    I consider it just a trigger improvement.
     
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