CZ-75 or EAA WITNESS?
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Ash
Member
I would normally say go CZ. Indeed, I refuse personally to buy a 9mm Witness (or .40). However, I do own a .45 Witness and prefer it to the CZ-97. I also prefer the safety and firing pin block design with the Witness as the first is more universal and the second is sturdier. The chromed Wonder Finish is also pretty tough, if stupidly named (along with the pistol name, but I digress). Mine is the blackened finish (which I recently refinished with alumahyde) and has been a flawless performer. Yeah, truly a flawless performer, not a hitch, hiccup, or delay. It remains my favorite .45 pistol (I got into Witnesses before the CZ-97 showed up, a .45 CZ-75, what a country!).
With that in mind, a 9mm Witness in Wonderfinish makes a good run for the money against a CZ. Design-wise, I consider the Witness to be a better pistol. In application and construction, however, the CZ wins hands down. Also, the CZ will retain its value much better than the Witness.
Currently, I own a pre "B", a transitional, a "B", and a CZ-85 compact, in addition to my Witness.
Ash
With that in mind, a 9mm Witness in Wonderfinish makes a good run for the money against a CZ. Design-wise, I consider the Witness to be a better pistol. In application and construction, however, the CZ wins hands down. Also, the CZ will retain its value much better than the Witness.
Currently, I own a pre "B", a transitional, a "B", and a CZ-85 compact, in addition to my Witness.
Ash
Walt Sherrill
Member
If I had a chance to check the gun out before hand, it would depend entirely on the trigger and the barrel/slide fit. I'd get whichever was better.
EAA sells good guns but, as noted, quality control slips from time to time... and their customer serivce has a horrible reputation. (I've bot EAA guns, CZs, and some other CZ-clones. They're all good guns!)
CZ seems to be better on all counts, but you'll find a bad one there, too, form time to time.
Hands on? Let your senses be the judge. If you have to buy long-distance, go CZ.
EAA sells good guns but, as noted, quality control slips from time to time... and their customer serivce has a horrible reputation. (I've bot EAA guns, CZs, and some other CZ-clones. They're all good guns!)
CZ seems to be better on all counts, but you'll find a bad one there, too, form time to time.
Hands on? Let your senses be the judge. If you have to buy long-distance, go CZ.
PCRCCW
Member
There WAS a difference in the mag dimensions. Admittedly, EAA may have bogused this with there first gen Poly guns.....They had BUL make new frames after the first gen guns didnt sell.
The 40 Poly Witness mags did NOT fit in my witness or CZ. But the Steel gun mags would work in my friends Poly Witness.
They may have fixed it in the sec. gen frames as to avoid further confusion.
But this WAS the case...................................K?
Shoot well.
The 40 Poly Witness mags did NOT fit in my witness or CZ. But the Steel gun mags would work in my friends Poly Witness.
They may have fixed it in the sec. gen frames as to avoid further confusion.
But this WAS the case...................................K?
Shoot well.
caz223
Member
With what happenned to me, I would never recommend a witness pistol, or any tanfoglio product, nor would I recommend any gun imported or supported by EAA.
I don't want to get into it right now, as when I do, I get physically ill.
Get the CZ, any CZ, you'll be happy with it.
My favorite of the CZ line is the 97b, shoot one, and you'll understand...
I don't want to get into it right now, as when I do, I get physically ill.
Get the CZ, any CZ, you'll be happy with it.
My favorite of the CZ line is the 97b, shoot one, and you'll understand...
mainmech48
Member
Like a couple of the others, I'm kinda torn on this'un. I have a Witness 9x19, a 75B, and a 97B. Love 'em all.
Have to acknowledge the rep for spotty QC from Italy. Many of the Witness line products that I've examined post my purchase aren't nearly as nicely fitted as the one I bought. As was said, sight-unseen I'd argue CZ. I bought my Witness very slightly used and examined it closely. May be the best $200-odd I ever spent. The "Wonder" finish really is, and it's extremely accurate with Federal 124 gr. Match or WW Silvertips especially. Has never choked once.
The 75B has a few practical advantages, such as the pinned front sight which makes it an order of magnitude easier to modify to suit your eyes or style. The Witness front is integral to the slide, so you have to fiddle with changing the rear's height (costs more, fewer options, and harder to get). Tritiums need a 'smith, and milling the slide will screw-up the finish on "Wonder" guns.
The 97B is, performance for the buck, perhaps the best buy out there in a "service" sized .45 ACP. It is large, but very closely comparable in size to a Beretta 92/96. Mine shot as well OTB as the custom 1911 I bought from one of the Big Names that cost me 3X the money. Fed, fired, and extracted any and all ball, and most HPs 100% OTB. Needed only minor ramp polishing for my 200 gr. SWC handloads to do the same.
Since both the options you mentioned are in the same shop, I'd compare the two side-by-side for fit and smoothness of function and buy the winner.
Have to acknowledge the rep for spotty QC from Italy. Many of the Witness line products that I've examined post my purchase aren't nearly as nicely fitted as the one I bought. As was said, sight-unseen I'd argue CZ. I bought my Witness very slightly used and examined it closely. May be the best $200-odd I ever spent. The "Wonder" finish really is, and it's extremely accurate with Federal 124 gr. Match or WW Silvertips especially. Has never choked once.
The 75B has a few practical advantages, such as the pinned front sight which makes it an order of magnitude easier to modify to suit your eyes or style. The Witness front is integral to the slide, so you have to fiddle with changing the rear's height (costs more, fewer options, and harder to get). Tritiums need a 'smith, and milling the slide will screw-up the finish on "Wonder" guns.
The 97B is, performance for the buck, perhaps the best buy out there in a "service" sized .45 ACP. It is large, but very closely comparable in size to a Beretta 92/96. Mine shot as well OTB as the custom 1911 I bought from one of the Big Names that cost me 3X the money. Fed, fired, and extracted any and all ball, and most HPs 100% OTB. Needed only minor ramp polishing for my 200 gr. SWC handloads to do the same.
Since both the options you mentioned are in the same shop, I'd compare the two side-by-side for fit and smoothness of function and buy the winner.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
I've owned both EAA and CZ products. CZ>EAA.
I have been looking for a new .40 CC pistol, and I have pretty much settled on the CZ 75 compact .40. than I saw the EAA witness. now I have a couple of questions for those of you that have shot both.
1) is the polymer EAA witness compact comfortable in the grip?
2) is the polymer EAA witness .40 compact shorter or taller than the CZ 75 compact .40? the EAA website states that the polymer .40 compact is shorter than the CZ compact .40 by .5', and longer by .2", but I dont know if this is due to the magazine or the actual gun.
3) what about the EAA steel witness .40 compact? longer, and shorter too? their website claims that this is 7.3" long like the cz, but 4.5" tall like the polymer.
4) any other clones I should look into? I dont like the baby eagle due to the slide mounted safety, and extra weight. Armalite and sphinx only make the 9mm as far as I have found.
5) is the factory DA/SA better or worse on the EEA?
6) the magazines are interchangeble between the EAA compact and CZ compact right? what about between the polymer and steel EAA?
7) does the CZ 75 DA/SA have a better or worse trigger than the HK USP compact .40? (at the gun shows in VA they tie all the tiggers and actions up, so no one can actually test the gun out. ****ing pain in the ass when deciding between two guns)
I think I prefer the CZ for the black steel frame, but it looks a little tall. anyone like/dislike this gun for CC? the Rami is just too small for me.
the EAA website claims their polymer compact .40 is 7.5" long and 4.5" high. can someone measure theirs and verify this? how much does the magazine add?
1) is the polymer EAA witness compact comfortable in the grip?
2) is the polymer EAA witness .40 compact shorter or taller than the CZ 75 compact .40? the EAA website states that the polymer .40 compact is shorter than the CZ compact .40 by .5', and longer by .2", but I dont know if this is due to the magazine or the actual gun.
3) what about the EAA steel witness .40 compact? longer, and shorter too? their website claims that this is 7.3" long like the cz, but 4.5" tall like the polymer.
4) any other clones I should look into? I dont like the baby eagle due to the slide mounted safety, and extra weight. Armalite and sphinx only make the 9mm as far as I have found.
5) is the factory DA/SA better or worse on the EEA?
6) the magazines are interchangeble between the EAA compact and CZ compact right? what about between the polymer and steel EAA?
7) does the CZ 75 DA/SA have a better or worse trigger than the HK USP compact .40? (at the gun shows in VA they tie all the tiggers and actions up, so no one can actually test the gun out. ****ing pain in the ass when deciding between two guns)
I think I prefer the CZ for the black steel frame, but it looks a little tall. anyone like/dislike this gun for CC? the Rami is just too small for me.
the EAA website claims their polymer compact .40 is 7.5" long and 4.5" high. can someone measure theirs and verify this? how much does the magazine add?
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JP from Phoenix
Member
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2007
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- 241
I've been thinking about getting the .45 versian of the witness, its a great looking gun and a great price
powwowell
Member
I don't have a CZ75. Maybe some day. I do have a 9mm Witness. It's blued, not Wonder Finished. I also have three other 9mm's to compare the Witness to. In short, I can't imagine a better handling, shooting pistol than my Witness. I would choose the Witness and spend the saved $100 on ammo.
wally
Member
Another old thread back from the dead.
I'll follow-up with another two years experience. If you want 9mm or .40S&W get the CZ, to me its a no-brainer. But if you like the CZ75 but want .45 or 10mm the Witness can be a good choice, especially in .45ACP. My poly 9mm compact & full sized.45 have been fine. The poly .40S&W is the worst gun I own, by far. But if I put the compact .45 conversion upper on it, functions 100%.
EAA 10mm steel frames (full & compact) have had magazine issues, I seem to have resolved them (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=305870) but the compact slide cracked (well under 300 rounds of wimpy factory fodder). Gun is on its way to EAA now, really annoyed that they wouldn't just replace the upper since I have the .45 compact conversion kit, but insisted I return the entire gun
The one feature of the Witness I do prefer over the CZ is the fact the thumb safety can be applied and the slide racked to load or unload.
The big negative to me with the Witness (other than poor customer support) is the front sight is milled as part of the slide meaning no way to change it. I put a fiber optic front (simple drive pin out, swap sights, drive pin back in) on my CZ75B and it rocks!
--wally.
I'll follow-up with another two years experience. If you want 9mm or .40S&W get the CZ, to me its a no-brainer. But if you like the CZ75 but want .45 or 10mm the Witness can be a good choice, especially in .45ACP. My poly 9mm compact & full sized.45 have been fine. The poly .40S&W is the worst gun I own, by far. But if I put the compact .45 conversion upper on it, functions 100%.
EAA 10mm steel frames (full & compact) have had magazine issues, I seem to have resolved them (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=305870) but the compact slide cracked (well under 300 rounds of wimpy factory fodder). Gun is on its way to EAA now, really annoyed that they wouldn't just replace the upper since I have the .45 compact conversion kit, but insisted I return the entire gun
The one feature of the Witness I do prefer over the CZ is the fact the thumb safety can be applied and the slide racked to load or unload.
The big negative to me with the Witness (other than poor customer support) is the front sight is milled as part of the slide meaning no way to change it. I put a fiber optic front (simple drive pin out, swap sights, drive pin back in) on my CZ75B and it rocks!
--wally.
browningguy
Member
Wow, some threads really get dragged back from the dead.
I would disagree, I have one CZ75B, no failures with it but very limited shooting. I have two Witness pistols, an old P-S model purchased new in 1997, 9mm with polymer frame, and a .40 Cal. Elite Match about a year old. I've been shooting the Match model in IDPA so it has several thousand rounds through it. Neither has ever had any problem at all, when I needed spare mags a very nice lady at EAA asked me about each one and then promptly sent off 3 of each that fit and worked with no problems. I don't know about repairs because I've never had to have one but there is a lot of negative feedback about the guy that runs the repair part of the business. However from the experiences I hear about the problem rate with EAA's seems no worse than any other manufacturer.
I think the triggers on the Witness pistols are generally better than the CZ's, whether used in DA or SA mode but that is just my experience. And to get a CZ pistol that is the equal of the Match model, which sells for around $450, costs serious coin.
I would disagree, I have one CZ75B, no failures with it but very limited shooting. I have two Witness pistols, an old P-S model purchased new in 1997, 9mm with polymer frame, and a .40 Cal. Elite Match about a year old. I've been shooting the Match model in IDPA so it has several thousand rounds through it. Neither has ever had any problem at all, when I needed spare mags a very nice lady at EAA asked me about each one and then promptly sent off 3 of each that fit and worked with no problems. I don't know about repairs because I've never had to have one but there is a lot of negative feedback about the guy that runs the repair part of the business. However from the experiences I hear about the problem rate with EAA's seems no worse than any other manufacturer.
I think the triggers on the Witness pistols are generally better than the CZ's, whether used in DA or SA mode but that is just my experience. And to get a CZ pistol that is the equal of the Match model, which sells for around $450, costs serious coin.
wally
Member
I agree the Witness Match pistols are great guns for the money and the SAO trigger is really nice.
Browningguy, could you please post a photo of one of your .40S&W mags showing the feed lips and follower? I've a .40S&W Witness-P compact that is the biggest jam-o-matic I've ever had. The mag that came with it looks exactly like the mag for my Witness 10mm compact except it says .40S&W on the body instead of 10mm. I've tried the 10mm mags in it and still have the same problems. I'm wondering if they've changed mags and either did something to keep the shorter rounds from moving forward or maybe extend feed lips so the release point is ~0.1" further forward to keep the shorter rounds under control.
I've exchanged Email with Ron Reed and he says his .40S&W mags sure look like the 10mm mags.
--wally.
Browningguy, could you please post a photo of one of your .40S&W mags showing the feed lips and follower? I've a .40S&W Witness-P compact that is the biggest jam-o-matic I've ever had. The mag that came with it looks exactly like the mag for my Witness 10mm compact except it says .40S&W on the body instead of 10mm. I've tried the 10mm mags in it and still have the same problems. I'm wondering if they've changed mags and either did something to keep the shorter rounds from moving forward or maybe extend feed lips so the release point is ~0.1" further forward to keep the shorter rounds under control.
I've exchanged Email with Ron Reed and he says his .40S&W mags sure look like the 10mm mags.
The way things are these days, with the assume it'll work and let the customer do final QA/QC moderm school of manufacturing, this can be a large issue with EAA since they will not work with you at all and insist you return the entire gun at your expense for any problem! My 10mm Witness compact slide cracked (less than 300 rounds, classic "infant mortality" failure) having to return the entire gun instead of just getting the upper exchanged is a real PITA and very annoying since I have a .45ACP compact conversion upper for it, whcih is what I shoot in it the most.
--wally.
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waynecrothers
Member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2008
- Messages
- 9
I happen to own a Witness steel full size with barrels and slides in 9mm and 40 sw. They take the same mag and have not been a problem in either cal. They utilize a double stack on the mags I got, 16 9mms and 12 40,s. Have yet to have a jam in either caliber after 100,s of rds. Got match sights on the 40 and fixed sights on the 9. Be aware that there are 2 frame sizes on the Witnesses and they are not well publicized. There is a small frame and a large frame and Eaa does not tell you the difference. I wanted to get a 45 acp conversion for my pistol and then found out on a gun forum that my frame wasn,t available in 45 acp. I could get the 10 mm and that was it. Anybody that doubts my word, go to EAA.corp.com and tell me if you can figure the web site out, especially the conversions. Other than that I think they are a good pistol. Mine shoots as good as my Kimber
Walt Sherrill
Member
Be aware that there are 2 frame sizes on the Witnesses and they are not well publicized. There is a small frame and a large frame and Eaa does not tell you the difference.
That was the case in the past, but now they make ONLY the large frame models. With calibers ranging from .22 through 10mm.
In buying a used gun, you've got to know what you're getting, but the differences are obvious. The only time its an issue, is when buying or ordering by mail.
That was the case in the past, but now they make ONLY the large frame models. With calibers ranging from .22 through 10mm.
In buying a used gun, you've got to know what you're getting, but the differences are obvious. The only time its an issue, is when buying or ordering by mail.
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