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CZ 75B/Broke AGAIN!

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by hansolo, Jan 7, 2003.

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  1. hansolo

    hansolo Member In Memoriam

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    Here's the deal: when it is not broken(most of the time), I love my 9mm CZ. Unfortunately, my current CZ75B broke both slidestop AND extractor today!! and...this CZ is a replacement for my first one that CZ couldn't repair, so gave me a replacement.:uhoh: AND, this is the THIRD slidestop that has broken in this pistol since JULY of '02 -- that's just six months.

    I use only non-+P factory ammo(no Wolf), only rarely do I rapid-fire, I field-strip and clean the pistol after each session...and, have replaced recoil and magazine springs with the recommended Wolff springs. What are the odds that I got two lemons made two years apart? I think these Czech pistols are anti-semites:rolleyes:

    To show how loyal I am to the Marque, I sent it back on warantee today and will probably keep it on return...that's how much, A.) I love the pistol, or B.) I am Certifiably insane:cuss:
     
  2. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    Hrmm... Well, put several thousand rounds through my first EAA, a 9mm. And probably close to my 40 S&W EAA with no problems. My current EAA Silver Team was used in competition for a couple years before I got it and I've put 1,300 rounds through it with no problems at all.

    My CZ IPSC standard came with a bag that had about 10 slide stops in it and you know the problems you've had with yours.

    Draw your own conclusions... :what:
     
  3. Zip06

    Zip06 Member

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    I have about a case of assorted 9mm through my 75B with no problems what so ever. Sorry to hear of your problems but CZ should resolve them. Please keep us up to date on this. Thanks.
     
  4. Prodigalshooter

    Prodigalshooter Member

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    Huh. I've experienced none of those failures in my CZ in the year+ that I've owned it. I think what I find odd, is that your replacement also had problems! I'd think they'd send a gun that had been "tested" a bit more than usual!
    Hope this isn't a sign of things to come.:eek:
    Hope they get it sorted out for you, cause the CZ is such a nice gun to shoot.
     
  5. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    Hey guys, I don't think his problem is that extraordinary. Why would CZ provide 10 slide stops with the IPSC if only one in 10,000 went bad?

    Could be hotter ammo, could be... I don't know what it could be but this isn't the first time I've heard of CZ slide stops breaking. Great guns, esp for the price, but I definately think the slide stops are a weak spot.
     
  6. Kahr carrier

    Kahr carrier Member

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  7. Airwolf

    Airwolf Member

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    Even with the best of companies you get a lemon or two now and then. I'm really amazed to hear of your problems with the 75.

    The the true mark of the company will be in how they resolve the problem.
     
  8. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Member

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    Well...IMO I dont think its the slide stop...? This problem is brought up once in a while on the CZForum...not enough to be "common". Honestly, it sounds like its a symptom of another problem....a tight/out of spec barrel locking setup...?????

    I had a CZ that I wanted to pitch off of the highest roof I could find....seriously. My first Compact drove me into a frenzy everytime the slide locked back....and the slide stop wasnt doing it! :banghead: I found the problem eventually...and in all honesty....S&^T happens. It didnt dissuade me from the guns..in fact in my search for the problem..I gained priceless knowledge about CZ's in general.

    Id have them look elsewhere for the problem....a connected part of the mechanism....barrel/frame area.......Ill bet they find the slidestop isnt the problem.

    Shoot well
     
  9. Pilot

    Pilot Member

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    I have had CZ's since 1996 and thousands of rounds through them. No problems at all. Hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction.
     
  10. Grayrider

    Grayrider Member

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    Slide stops

    Gents,

    The IPSC ST comes with four slide stops. Two will lock back the slide on an empty mag (so one spare of that type), two will not (again one spare). The latter are for use in IPSC where you probably don't want to shoot until your mag is dry. So they anticipate one breakage in the life of the gun--whatever that is.

    Regardless, I would get on the phone with CZ-USA and talk to Mike. This is not good PR for them.

    GR
     
  11. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Member

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    Yep.....its not good PR for them..but Mike will make it right. CZUSA does offer great Customer Service...Let us all know what is found on the gun....Shoot well
     
  12. hansolo

    hansolo Member In Memoriam

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    To fellow HIGHROADers

    Thanks for your interest and empathy:rolleyes: After emailing Walt Sherrill(a CZ Guy), I think his diagnoses may be the reason I've had so many broken slidestops: (this was mentioned above, as well): to put it simply, the forces between the barrel lug and the slidestop pin are not "in spec". I can see daylight when looking straight down between the slidestop release and the left side of the slide...this makes me think that the slidestop pin holes were not "straight"...but the really strange part is, the extractor claw snapped off at the same time....this while using UMC 115g ammo...one that I have NEVER had a problem with...I saved the casing fired right before the slidestop snapped...it dropped right in the chamber...not a case of a bulge that could have damaged the extractor:confused:

    Oh well, if I had a perfect pistol, I wouldn't have learned so much about how they work(and, sometimes, break:p
     
  13. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    From what I understand, from various sources and reading some of the things Matt Burkett has written, it's pretty common for IPSC-type competitors to underspring their guns to increase slide velocity to decrease their split times. This change would contribute to more wear on the slide-stop pin.

    FWIW, I've purchased 4 CZ's over the last 6 months.

    Two of those operated flawlessly from the box. One would prematurely lock the slide back with rounds left in the mag approx 1% of the time (unacceptible for competition or carry) and it was fixed when I sent it in for a trigger job. The last one was a 75 COMPACT that would FTRB/FTF on 25% of the rounds (FMJ) from the box, and 500 rounds later, would fail on 10% of FMJ and still about 25%-50% of premium factory JHP. http://pub105.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm38.showMessage?topicID=175.topic

    That 75 COMPACT is going back to CZ-USA for warranty repair. Really, it's unexcusable to ship such a pistol. On the other hand, my GF has a 75 COMPACT that has operated flawlessly from the box.

    Two of those four also had non-structural and non-obvious flaws in the metalwork on the frame: http://pub105.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm3.showMessage?topicID=990.topic

    All that said, I like CZ's a lot. My worked-on 75B-SA is currently my favorite pistol to shoot.

    I think it's reasonable for a factory gun to come with only a so-so trigger, but to have sloppy metalwork and uncertain reliability is unacceptible and disappointing in a product that's otherwise engineered well and built with "old world quality."

    -z
     
  14. Sven

    Sven Senior Member

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    sorry to hear of your problems. hopefully the 3rd will be the charm.

    Perhaps you could give the new gun a good luck blessing with new HAKAN CUSTOM GRIPS? That would surely cure your jinx.

    [​IMG]

    Hakan's Custom Grips - Website

    -sven
     
  15. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    That is just bizzare. Only thing that I can say is that every once in a while you'll get a dud.

    I've owned four CZs and am somewhat responsible for three other CZ purchases. All of them have been more or less trouble-free (my first CZ-75b Military had some ejection issues, eventually traced back to Pro-Mag magazines.)

    Still, I keep a bag of spare parts handy. That's probably the secret...

    - Chris
     
  16. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Member

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    Walt is a solid CZ guy...if their ever was one. His diagnosis follows suit with what I was mentioning earlier...its just to out of the ordinary for this to happen and not be a symptom of another problem.
    Zak, yep ....Race gun guys do use very weak springs to increase their slide speed on the recoil impulse...its exceptionally hard on stops..but the race gunners know this....they compensate for it by using shock buffers/different recoil guides that are tricked out to handle it and reduce battering.
    Also the opposite holds true..the faster the primary recoil compression the slower the return of the slide....all they are doing is moving the slide speed around to suit their needs.
    They do it so they can shoot very low loads of ammo and not suffer with unreliability.
    A defensive gun..goes the other way...go as heavy as you can on recoil springs....slowing the slide down on the initial recoil impulse and a quicker return...the faster slowing reduces battering/slide stop abuse of heavier ammo +P etc and again, just moves the speed to where its better for the gun/shooter.

    Sven...Absolutely...Hakans will solve not only mechanical and technique problems...but also those of other natures also.....:D
    Shoot well
     
  17. RustyHammer

    RustyHammer Member

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    I've had no problems of any kind with either of my 75B's. Love them beyond words.

    Sorry to hear about your problems. I suggest you call CZ and talk to Mike ... he's the best.

    http://www.cz-usa.com/_p/p22.php

    Good luck!
     
  18. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    PCRCCW,
    I'm not sure I agree regarding cycle time based on a debate between Matt Burkett himself and a shooter and professional failure-analysis engineer MarkCO on GlockTalk from a couple years ago: The "why heavier recoil spring?" thread on Glocktalk. There is some excellent information and data posted in it.

    In paricular, using finite-element analysis (what he does for a living), MarkCO showed:
    Also, having a weaker recoil spring will change how the recoil impulse of the slide is converted into torque and thus recoil will feel different to the shooter.

    Besides that the overall cycle time will be shorter with the weaker spring as seen before, all else equal, a stronger-than-normal spring decreases reliability. Yes, if you want maximum life of your slide stop, frame, or any other component stressed during recoil, use a heavier recoil spring for practice or competition.

    When you are carring it and any single round must absoluetely run the pistol properly, use of a spring that is heavier may (and a too-heavy spring will) cause malfunctions including FTE, FTF, and failure of the slide to lock back.

    regards
    Zak
     
  19. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Member

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    Hmmm interesting post and info.

    The info may be correct..but find it hard to grasp or believe parts of it..the analogy about the golf ball is relavent if you count when its being compressed...the rebound portion of the analogy which is only when the ball impacts the ground, compress's ...releases and returns the other direction.
    The spring is being compressed from the beginning of the slide movement and doesnt complete the cycle until the slide is in battery.

    I can see how the faster slide/weaker spring can "rebound" the slide back faster with assistance from either a shock buffer or just bouncing off of the frame..but physical law dictates anything else to be false. A stronger spring will stop the slide faster (on its own tension) and with more tension/weight, thus return the slide faster than with a weaker spring....using its own power as its driving force. A weaker spring without any help from the frame or buffer assisting in its rebound simply cant do the same thing.

    Given, the times/speeds differences may not be far enough apart to really give any advantage either way

    I carry +P or +P+ 9mm....its hard on guns. I run a 20# recoil spring in my PCR's..have for ever and have had no failures..and a big difference in percieved recoil coming back at me.

    Yet whenever I say that..people always come at me with the same type of data you provided for me currently....its all percieved. Every shooter that shoots the gun also has the same perception.....I guess to each their own.

    Sorry if I come across as being stubborn...but its because Im stubborn :D Some things just make sense to me...and some simply dont.

    Its all good information.....thanks for the reply.

    shoot well
     
  20. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    PCRCCW,

    No need to apologize. A lot of this stuff is voodoo or rocket science depending on your perspective. Getting the experience to match up with the physics is hard.

    What I liked about that thread on Glocktalk is that a consummate shooting expert with little formal physics/engineering knowledge and the professional math/physics/materials guy started off disagreeing, only to come to agreement after much detail and different effects were discussed.

    I agree that a stronger spring will close the slide faster than when released from slide-lock or manually slingshotting the slide. It's simple physics when the system starts at rest.

    In recoil, however, unless the gun is severely over-sprung, the recoil spring is not going stop the slide's rearward motion completely. The slide will "bottom out" and hit the frame or slide-stop pin, or whatever mechanically prevents the slide from going any further back. In the more lightly-sprung pistol, the slide will hit this "stop" at higher velocity. This is where the "golf ball" analogy comes in- if it hits the stop faster, it'll rebound starting at a higher initial (forward) velocity that it would have with the heavier spring.

    This argument about split times is really academic for most of us, since only the top 1% or something of shooters will be able to notice a difference. 40 microseconds? Sure! That'll halve my split times! :scrutiny: NOT!

    I agree that recoil perception is different between people and guns. I use a stronger spring in my Glock 23/32 and I like it. But in my 75B-SA, shooting +P ammo, I feel less recoil impule with the factory spring than with a Wolff extra-power (16lb). With the heavier spring, the pistol's muzzle ends up rising more and I feel more of a push.

    I still think you must be careful when increasing recoil spring weight in a self-defense weapon, while carrying it. It's well known that overspringing a pistol can cause several types of malfunctions, and increasing spring weight, even while it's not oversprung, will move you closer to certain failure modes. For example, if you hit a round that is on the slow end of the deviation, a heavier spring will mean it has a higher chance to FTE/FTF/FTLTSB. On the other hand, a light spring moves you toward frame/pin battering.

    Personally, I don't worry about the wear & tear on the pistol due to shooting carry rounds, either to verify their functionality or to shoot out last-years "carry" rotation. Proload is too expensive to practice with it.

    On the other hand, if I'm going to load up a bunch of "warm" to "hot" handloads (all hail old Vihtavuroi data!) and practice with it, or if I'm heading to a steel shoot notorious for steel that won't fall, I'll put the heavier recoil spring in to "conserve" wear and tear on the frame and components.

    regards
    Zak
     
  21. Destructo6

    Destructo6 Member

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    How's this: don't replace the springs with Wolf versions. IMO, the Wolf springs, particularly the recoil versions, are highly overrated. The one I bought for my CZ-75 was about 1/3 longer than the stock version, as was the firing pin spring.
     
  22. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Member

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    Zak,
    Again, some good points. Its hard to come up with the perfect setup...for sure. Trial and error and hopefully a setup that works for each situation can be reached. Spring rates are like the old 9mm vs 45 vs 40 arguement....there is no real correct answer...what ever works for you!
    Destructo...you can use whatever springs you desire. Its quite common for OEM CZ springs to come very weak brand new....Ive measured 14 LB recoil springs at 12 lbs...
    Wolff is a TOP CHOICE if and when you decided you need springs. Ive used them in every gun Ive had for the last ...well, a very long time.
    CZ Recoil Springs do come in different lengths...Pre B" is different than B models....etc. So be careful what spring you end up with even from CZ.....Mike can tell us all....If he doesnt know..he calls Dave @ Wolff for tech. assistance.
    The new spring will be longer everytime without fail..whether you get one from CZ or Wolff....they take a SET after about 5-100 rnds..and settle into a working length/tension...thus becoming shorter in OAL.
    Shoot well....
     
  23. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    That is interesting - both my carry guns (full-size CZ-75s) have Wolff mainsprings and firing pin springs, but I stuck with the factory recoil springs. The Wolff Extra Power springs were very difficult to install, and they would bind up the gun something fierce. That may (may!) be part of your problem.

    - Chris
     
  24. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    We were debating/discussing (blowing it out our ...) the issue of stronger and weaker recoil springs on the CZ Forum recently.

    One of our members talks with the techies at Wolff a lot.

    I couldn't see why a heavier recoil spring might require heavier mag springs. We talked through that.... (The slide is slower going back with a heavy spring, but when it starts to go forward, its faster, and there's a limited "window" of time for the next round to be up and ready.) I didn't see that for a long time.

    With regard to the heavier spring sending the slide forward faster: it makes sense. More of the energy of the slide going back is being captured in the spring and less is going back into the frame.

    I don't understand why that's not harder on the slide stop when the spring sends the slide forward (since more energy is being dealt with...) The spring isn't buffering the slide stop when the slide is being returned, but the recommended action to protect slide stops is a heavier recoil spring. Go figure. (Or, more simply, "HELP!")

    This is all semi-esoteric for me, however, so I'll wait to see what others have to say. (I also need to read the whole GLOCK article cited, above.) Thanks for that Glock citation/url.

    --------------

    I've read the whole thing now, and I don't think I know a bit more useful information now than before I read it. <sign>

    I have not experienced MORE FELT RECOIL when I've used heavier springs. (The recoil is the same, but how its imparted is different.) I have no doubt that the way the recoil is experienced is different. I also have no doubt that if more of the total force being handled goes into the frame, the springs have less to use to return the slide. That doesn't mean that the slide returns more slowly, but it doesn't mean it DOESN'T, either.

    It seems to me that if the spring is too light, more of the total force won't be handled by the spring, but will be passed back through the frame to the shooter. (That's conjecture, and not based on any tests.)

    Some of the opinions expressed in the long discussion on Glock Talk seemed to be little more than that. And opinions are like that thing we sit on: we've all got one.

    Only one of the guys had done any meaningful testing and measurement and I'm not entirely sure I understand what he said, or agree with his analysis.

    Some of this stuff is definitely NOT intuitively obvious.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2003
  25. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    I agree that the heavier spring will store more energy, but MarkCO was saying that the higher impact velocity when the lightly-sprung slide hits the frame is that it "bounces" and starts with higher forward velocity.

    If I were going to prove this either way, I'd want a ransom rest and some very high speed photography...


    regards
    -z
     
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