CZ 75b vs Sig 226

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by chiltech500, Jan 5, 2015.

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  1. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    Yes and no.

    Ruger sells almost no guns to the U.S. military or LEO. What do you infer from that? SIGs are widely used by LEOs in the U.S., but see only limited use by the US mlitary. U.S. NAVY SEALS do use a special model of the P226, but they use other handguns, too. Keep in mind, too, that the U.S. military uses many, many times more Berettas than SIGs.

    CZs are not seen much in police work in the U.S. but that may be because CZ has no U.S. factories for their 75B or P-07/p-09 series guns, and most LEO organizations will buy ONLY US-made weapons. (Glock and Beretta have U.S. factories.) Limited sales to US LEO agencies may also be because CZ doesn't have the deep pockets of firms like S&W and Glock to offer deep discounts to LEO agencies -- which seems to be the driving force behind LEO sales: low price. CZs are used as police weapons in parts of Europe, the Middle East, and in African nations. CZs also see military service in a number of countries, including Israel.

    Before the Western Embargo of Communist-made weapons ended (in 1991) Israel liked the CZ guns so much they bought licensing rights from Tanfoglio for the Tanfoglio version of the CZ design, and started making the weapons themselves (through the IMI and IWI firms); IWI developed the Baby Eagle guns for commercial use.) This all started before the fall of the Soviet Union (1991). After the embargo ended, CZ sold weapons to the Turkish military, and they later, like Israel, made them themselves -- and started making a number of different Turkish-made CZ pattern guns to the world. CZ is a relatively young "for-profit" organization, and I am amazed that they've done as well as they have competing against firms like SIG, Glock and Beretta. They're advertising budget in the U.S. has been tight and much of their sales success is due to word-of-mouth promotion by other CZ owners.

    The latest IDPA Nationals were just held, and listed 320 guns used in that competition; the highest counts: 97 Glocks, 87 S&Ws, 42 Springfield Armory, 22 STI, 21 CZs. Not a single SIG.

    SIGs are good guns. I have a Gray Guns-tuned P228r and a P220 Super Match. For use in competiton or for home defense, I prefer my Glock 38 to the P220 Super Match. I'm also now shooting a Sphinx SDP, and prefer it to all of my guns -- possible exception: a custom AT-84s, which is also CZ-pattern gun.

    chitech500: if you can, try hands-on with the guns, and actually shoot them. (Rentals? From an acquaintance?) Nothing beats actually shooting a number of rounds through the gun. CZ triggers will get better with use. SIG triggers are usually pretty good out of the box. SIGs don't fit me as well as a CZ -- but not everyone falls in love with the CZ, hands on. Why? The non-decocker CZs have a LONG DA trigger, and you NEED to experience THAT before you buy, unless you plan to start from cocked & locked. Or just look into the P-01 or the PCR, or if you can find one, the 75BD, the full-size CZ with decocker. The decocker models have a slightly shorter and lighter trigger, due to the fact that they start from the half-cock notch.
     
  2. ajoker31

    ajoker31 Member

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    You already have a Sig might as well try a CZ. You really don't have anything to lose. The CZ's are fine guns...not as refined as the a Sig but a nice addition to any collection.

    I've enjoyed playing with CZ's; CZ-75b and single action along with an SP01 Shadow. I've tweaked the triggers on all of them and put a competition hammer, sear and flat trigger on the shadow.

    I like heavy steel pistols (although I carry plastic). I think you really have to experience a CZ, it's just different. I enjoyed the 75b but prefer the SP01 just because of the weight....it's a friggin brick with nice ergonomics.

    My CZ's go to the range with me for play time....will they out shoot my Sig X5? Nope nothing does. Would they be MY first choice for carry or self defense....nope I have others that fill that spot. The CZ's are just fun to shoot, round out my collection and are a kick to take to the range.
     
  3. chiltech500

    chiltech500 Member

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    Thanks Walt. The LGS does have many rentals, don't know if they have the CZ. My Sig 225 is DA/SA with decocker with longish DA pull.

    I would not carry the CZ. I actually like Sigs long DA for carry and I don't want to deal with a safety. In a real emergency that long DA pull becomes nothing due to adrenaline and it is really safe way to carry.
     
  4. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    I'm not sure Walt is referring to how long the trigger must travel, but how long your fingers need to be to reach the trigger.

    There really is no gun I want to like more than the CZ75B. Practically no gun feels as good in my hand as a CZ75, but I just can't reach the trigger in DA mode without rotating my hand to one side and I can't reach the thumb safety in SA mode without rotating my hand the other way. I've had them in my hands at the gun stores more time than I can count with the intention of buying one, but passed each time since I can't comfortably reach the controls.

    For instance, the Beretta 92 has has a pretty chunky grip, but I'd rather live with one of those than a CZ75B, since I can reach the controls much better on the Beretta. I'm a 1911 guy and I prefer the thumb safety on the frame like the CZ over the slide mounted safety/decocker on the Beretta, but as odd as it may sound I'd rather have the Beretta over a CZ75B. I'm only talking about the CZ75B here, not any of the other models that may have different controls such as the single action or decocker models or any of the more compact versions.
     
  5. wojownik

    wojownik Member

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    I have both the CZ-75B and P226, as well as other Sigs.

    Both the CZ75 and p226 are superb firearms. Both are very accurate, reliable pistols. Yes, the CZ is heavier than the Sig - it is a beautiful hunk of metal. The heavier CZ makes shooting 9mm really nice at the range, and helps with quicker follow-up shots.

    The CZ has a lower bore axis than the Sig. Some will cite lower perceived recoil for pistols with a lower bore axis.

    The CZ trigger isn't bad in DA, and yes, significantly lighter than the Sig DA pull. The Sig SA pull is a bit better though, IMHO, than the CZ.

    Another big difference between the CZ-75B and the p226 is the action. The CZ-75 B can be carried hammer down or cocked (safety on). Like your p225, the p226 is carried decocked/hammer down. You could also look at the CZ-75BD to add the decocker.

    Both pistols are excellent. Which is why I ended up with both. :evil:

    I like the smaller pistols though (p225, p228, p229). Which is why I've also been eyeing the CZ-75 Compact for a long, long time.
     
  6. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    Both. actually. :D

    There are solutions: 1) thinner grips, now available from several sources. 2) use the PCR/P-01 trigger, which is interchangeable and is more curved, 3) get the trigger pull reduction kits from the CZ Custom Shop or Cajun Gun Works. (If you're at all handy with guns, you can do these things yourself.)

    Several of my friends love the CZ but continue to avoid them because of the long trigger pull. The decocker models, however, start from the half-cock notch, which shortens and lightens the pull a bit. If decockers don't bother you, there are several decocker CZs available, including some set up for competition.
     
  7. sigarms228

    sigarms228 Member

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    I have a couple P226s and SIG is easily my favorite metal frame pistol.

    My Son has a CZ 75 SP01 and I have shot it a lot but it is not for me for several reasons including seeing the reliability problems he has had with it or as he calls it "ammo sensitivity". The trigger on his CZ was atrocious compared to my P226 and has improved after a couple thousands rounds but still not near as nice as my P226s.

    CZs IMO are a good value, though not near as good a value as they used to, be but I would rather invest a little bit more for a SIG. Usually one can find nice used SIGs or CPO for a great price. One of my P226s was a CPO as new for $500 and the other one an almost as new German P226 for $500.

    Best best bet is to try both for yourself to see what works for you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
  8. chiltech500

    chiltech500 Member

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    You have made a great point JTQ. Though I would not use the CZ for carry I may use it for home defense as a nightstand gun. I sold my Beretta 92 because of the issues you raised. Thought about buying the VZ grips in thin if they make them.

    The pistol I dry fired a couple of times had only the CZ 75b on the tag and I did not pay attention to the reach for DA (should have) or the safety/decocker. Is the decocker model the 75bd?
     
  9. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    The CZ75BD is a decocker model, though CZ has a few other models with a decocker. The decocker is very reachable, it is farther back on the frame than a 1911 thumb safety.

    For reference, my thumb knuckle rides above the pivot point of my 1911 thumb safety so the pad of my thumb is on the paddle of the safety and I have lots of leverage on the 1911 thumb safety. The pad of my thumb basically sits on the pivot point of the CZ75B thumb safety giving me very little leverage on the CZ75B thumb safety. In addition, the CZ75B thumb safety doesn't really have a ledge like a 1911 safety, it is more like a jelly bean cut in half. It is not as easily manipulated, at least for me.
     
  10. Combat Engineer

    Combat Engineer Member

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    A couple of gents invited me to shoot their CZs. A standard CZ75 and the other a CZ75 race gun (vertical trigger, expanded mag well, fancy sights, chrome/nickel/SS? etc. Both guns had 2,000 rounds each mileage. They were getting 2.5" groups. Shot both guns, very ergonomic, very nice feel, but stiff triggers. Both shot 2" groups... they were happy with my results, but that changed when I shot a 1/2" group with my Sig P239. My Sig P229 shoots 3/4" groups. Don't have a Sig P226.

    Have really wanted to pick up a CZ75 compact, such a nice feel, unlike the Sigs which feel like bricks but for some reason shoot very accurately, and is the only reason I keep them. Must be the triggers, the Sig DA trigger is heavy, but butter smooth, and the SA trigger is near 1911.

    The LGS had a CZ75B compact L, good looking, felt great in the hand, $1,000 price tag, was tempted, but my range experience stopped me.

    PS: If you don't already have one, check out a Browning Hi-Power, a fat grip, not really ergonomic, but an accurate shooter, prefer the earlier ones. Wish they had made it in a single stack.
     
  11. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    A fat grip? Compared to what? The Browning Hi-Power is one of the most small hand friendly double stack guns made.
     
  12. Combat Engineer

    Combat Engineer Member

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    Well how about a Smith & Wesson SW99, which holds 17 rds vs the Hi-Powers 14? Or my favorite 9mm, the Springfield Armory 1911 EMP? Or a CZ75B compact L?

    The Hi-Power feels like a fat baseball bat to me, would have preferred it in a single stack 8... come to think of it, wasn't that the way it was originally designed by JMB?
     
  13. Ky Larry

    Ky Larry Member

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    You really have to shoot both side by side. I much prefer CZs but we may not agree. Good luck.
     
  14. boatdoc173

    boatdoc173 Member

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    Hi

    I have both. I am a HUGE CZ fan--out of the box they are very accurate and great fun to shoot

    the sig p226 took a bit of time to be accurate with it

    I would get the CZ-- it costs less-- is a heavy steel framed gun-- you will not regret owning either the sig or the cz but I prefer CZ( I have 6 of them p-01 ,p06, cz 75 bd, cz sp01, cz 97 cz 85).

    One caveat though--the CZ field strips takes time to get used to-- they only have 2 small marks on the left sid e of the slide(wish they marked both sides of the gun) and the gun and then you need to use a soft plastic rod(I us e a bic pen) to bang the retaining pin out--otherwise --no issue sand I have a HUGE smile on my face when I shoot the CZs-- I also love to have others try them out as not too many have even heard of them

    also EAA make sthe witness--it is a cz copy made in Italy and handles welll--if $$ is an issue eaa are less expensive--check buds gun shop or impact guns for pricing on these

    hope you enjoy them as much as my wife and I do

    happy shooting

    rob
     
  15. JDR

    JDR Member

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    My CZ 75B holds its own at the range with my BHP, my SIG P228, and my 9mm STI Trojan, these are all reliable and accurate and a lot of fun to shoot with.
     
  16. boatdoc173

    boatdoc173 Member

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    @combat engiuneer

    please check out buds gun shop(.com) or impact guns (.com) or czshop

    the price you were quoted for a cz 75 compact is way too high

    hope you love the CZ line and your new gun as much as I do

    by the way CZ customer service is exceptional!!!!
     
  17. boatdoc173

    boatdoc173 Member

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    I agree with you--love all of my CZs

    +1 to @kylarry too
     
  18. 9 fingers

    9 fingers Member

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    Don't have much to add except that my new glossy 75b has a super smooth and light trigger, much better than my 2 year old 75b polycoat, which I just sold. And the trigger on that one was not bad at all. Also, regarding take down, I just use the mag floorplate to push the takedown pin, simple and quick. The 75b is an excellent pistol and a bargain.
    9 fingers
     
  19. Combat Engineer

    Combat Engineer Member

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    "...the price you were quoted for a cz 75 compact is way too high..." [boatdoc173]

    The CZ 75B compact L is a custom shop special: aluminum frame, light trigger, all internals fluffed and buffed, slim grips, nite sights, race hammer, light trigger, very smooth action, and very accurate. I could only find one on-line, with a few more bells and whistles, price is $1,755.

    Maybe shoulda bought that one from my LGS.
     
  20. Armor Snail

    Armor Snail Member

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    Yes. Compact L is one step below the SDP package. Which is one below the ProTek II.

    Also CZ decockers work exactly like a sigs, albeit in a different location. Push down and it automatically pops back up, unlike an M9 or 3rd gen S&W.

    Also, on a manual safety model it is perfectly safe to carry with the hammer at the same half cock notch that the decockers lower to.
    I've been carrying my 75 for over 2 years like that. It does take some of the length of travel out resulting in a slightly lighter pull.
     
  21. chiltech500

    chiltech500 Member

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    Any way to verify that? Sounds like a good thing, if nothing than to shorten the pull a bit.

    How would you describe the difference? I'm not familiar with the CZ's coating but my Dan Wesson 1911 has a very nice black matte finish.
     
  22. 5-SHOTS

    5-SHOTS Member

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    I have experience with both: I have the P226 and my father has a 75B stainless and a P-01. I have to say I prefere my SIG by a wide margin in every aspect.
     
  23. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    re: decocker models lowering the hammer to tha half cock notch.

    Don't know what there is to verify. The manual may address it... but it's a known characteristic of the design.

    CZ added the decocker models long after they developed the standard B version of the 75, and there are no other differences internally (except for the removed hammer hook, previously mentioned, and the different lever to decock the hammer)... The hammer is the same on both decocker and safety-equipped models. There's really no other place the hammer can go: it's either cocked, half-cock, or all the way down. And manually decockINB the lever-decocked gun will show YOU that it was on the half-cock notch when you started -- you'll see a difference in the hammer position..

    You can decock the decocker models further (from the half-cock notch to lower the hammer all the way down) just as you would any safety-equipped model or a revolver... but I don't know why anyone would want to do that. With the firing pin block, the gun is perfectly safe if dropped, etc. (The firing pin block won't allow the firing pin to move forward unless the trigger is pulled fully to the rear.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
  24. ROCK6

    ROCK6 Member

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    It’s hard to beat a Sig, but for the price, CZ’s are pretty sweet. I have a few Sigs including the P226 (P226 older West German model; P228, P225 and P220), and I have even more CZs (75-PreB, 85, 75B, Semi Compact, Compact, PO1, CZ97 and a couple of CZ83s).

    Both will serve you well for self defense or combat. I had a good discussion with a Lithuanian officer last tour in Afghanistan who was carrying a CZ75. Other than the weight, they are excellent service pistols and the newer Polymer versions are more suited with rail and weight.

    I’ve never had a reliability issue with any CZ, either ball or HP except my older Pre-B which took a little polishing but I mostly just use ball with it. For me, the biggest advantage of the CZ is the cocked-and-locked option of carrying. The only decocker CZ I have is the PO1 and that too is a great carry gun.

    Sigs are premier guns without a doubt and you’ll see some rougher machining marks on CZs, but just as solid of a performer.

    The most important aspect between the two would be ergonomics. I don’t have an issue with either, but with some quality VZ grips, the CZ hits my sweet spot. I don’t CCW either, but doing drills on the range, they ride in solid OWB holsters so the weight difference is less of an issue. Ten years ago I would have erred on the side of Sig due to parts and aftermarket accessories, but CZ has a great following and more smiths able to work on them (if ever needed).

    The irony is I carry Glocks or Kahrs more for CCW; I shoot my CZ’s most often at the range but I have a Sig P226 as my bedside gun. I’m more efficient with my Glocks, but CZ’s are probably the most accurate of my pistols. There is just something alluring about the all-steel CZ pistols that stir my soul…

    ROCK6
     
  25. chiltech500

    chiltech500 Member

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    Rock 6 I like what you have to say and comparing observations on both Sig and CZ. I too would favor the CZ and Sig at the range vs the Glock and Karr :)

    Post Purchase observations first shots at range with out of Box CZ 75b, non-decocker:

    I find most everybodys observations relevant to my decision. Half cock is beneficial for shortening travel a bit. JTQ's observations about smaller hands struggling to reach the safety, in particular, I find true for me. The safety flick on/off with my shooting hand ain't happening; I need to use the second hand because the reach is too far. That's ok because this will never be a carry gun just for bedside and range use. At bedside it will be at half cock.

    My new CZ ate my reloads without a hiccup with the heavy gunk they put in a new gun for lube. I had some iffy rounds sporting a light powder load (an experiment), if there was ever a time to be ammo sensitive yesterday would have been it. I give thumbs up there.

    Cons:

    (1) I wish in both SA and DA there was less wasted trigger travel. It seems there is slack to take up before there is an engagement. I will agree the Sig SA is preferable but I don't find the CZ trigger a roblem, just different. My mini 9mm Sig 290 has a long active travel in its DA only pull and like the CZ it is just something you get used to with practice.

    (2) I agree the slide inside frame is not as easy to rack as the Sig, a big point for me with reloads because I do experience some FTF's in 9mm's using lead SWC's. The Sig 225 is quite forgiving with ammo but it is very easy to clear a misfire from also, a big plus. Yes the Sig fit and finish seem more refined but I really like the new CZ, it's a looker too whereas the Sig is function over form, very German like :)
     
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