CZ RAMI Quality?

[ejfalvo]

I have a chance to buy a CZ RAMI BNIB, for a great price. I usually carry/shoot Sigs. Curious about CZ quality. Thoughts are appreciated.

 

[bannockburn]

ejfalvo

I currently have one, a P01, and it's a great 9mm. pistol. Quality of construction and materials used are first rate as is the overall fit and finish and ergonomics. If it were me I would buy the CZ RAMI, especially if it's at a decent price. Don't see many of them around and it should make for a very nice CCW.

 

[somethingbenign]

I bought a RAMI earlier this year and really enjoy it. The finish is really top notch and constantly get compliments on how nice looking it is. Durability seems good, after a few hundred rounds I haven't had any issues and no signs of wear. I did have a small issue where the white paint on the front sight flaked off my first trip to the range but CZ fixed it right away with very few questions. Sadly my work situation changed and now carrying anything outside a pocket isn't an option for most the day so the RAMI gets passed over for a Beretta Pico most days. I did experience some very light rust after carrying for a few months in a 100F+ building doing construction but I'd bet that reflects more on my lax in maintenance during those months than build quality. I do take out my RAMI to the range if I just want to shoot to enjoy shooting more than any other pistol I own, even my full sized.

 

[Batty67]

I just sold mine from 2011 to finance, in part, my BHP. Mine was dead nuts reliable and the ergonomics were excellent. And I shtot it very well up to 15 yards, and only had a 3" barrel so that as fine. I kept the stock thin rubber grips, and had grip extenders installed on my 10-round magazine so I had support for my pinky. I thought the 14-round magazines were excellent, as is. But, as a double-stack, I found it too "fat" for CHP so I got a Springfield EMP, which I prefer for carry.

Finish-wise, nice looking pistol, but per all CZs, finishing the inside of the slide was not a priority.

 

[fly out]

I have a RAMI and I'm happy to own it. I agree it is a little wide but it feels great in the hand (to me).

Like its cousin the PCR, they are slightly hard to come by, so I bet you can move it along with little trouble if it turns out you don't like it.

Mine doesn't have a decocker. If that feature matters to you, you might check, as yours might, or might not...

 

[flphotog]

I love my CZ's but as much as I tried the Rami didn't make the cut and I finally sold it. Mostly because it is so thick that it just didn't conceal that well. I could easily carry a P-07 or PCR instead of the Rami, so why carry such a small gun.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

They sure are beautiful top notch Pistols. Love that pic. Wish I had bought one years ago.

 

[PoPo22]

CZ guns seem to have been very under rated for a long time now in the U.S. They are very popular in Europe and elsewhere in the world, just never got the proper attention in the U.S. that they deserve. They are quality guns, just pick your poison.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

The .40 S&W CZ RAMI had known issues with feeding. I sent mine back to CZ-USA 3 or 4 times and they couldn't get it right. I ended up selling it. I've heard nothing but good things about their 9mm RAMIs. I personally think there a better choices in that size of gun. I'd rather have a PCR

 

[Seven High]

If you can get it for a good price, buy it. They are fairly hard to find on the used market. You should be easily able to sell it if you do not like it.

 

[I6turbo]

I would have no concerns whatsoever of the quality of a 9-mm RAMI, but for me they aren't in the same league in terms of great ergonomics as the CZ 75-based guns like the PCR and P-01.

 

[PhillySoldier]

Im a Sig fan myself. The gf got a rami last year. Its an excellent subcompact. Shoots great and has the lightest recoil out of a 9mm 3" barrel that ive ever used. I liked it so much it got me to invest in a CZ Shadow 2. There are 2 versions of the Rami. I prefer the one with the decocker. Just to add my only cons are the sights on it suck.

 

[zaitcev]

I can't deal with the cheating with the barrel that's not parallel to the slide. On a bigger CZ-75 it's not as noticeable, but on RAMI the barrel is much shorter and this is why you get the grotesque rear sight. It flips the muzzle more, too. The angle makes the boreaxis height greater. As was mentioned before, the 9mm RAMI is a quality product, just the design has its quirks.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Could you clarify that? Because, everything you just wrote has me scratching my head.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I can't deal with the cheating with the barrel that's not parallel to the slide. On a bigger CZ-75 it's not as noticeable, but on RAMI the barrel is much shorter and this is why you get the grotesque rear sight. It flips the muzzle more, too. The angle makes the boreaxis height greater. As was mentioned before, the 9mm RAMI is a quality product, just the design has its quirks.

I can understand it If you don't like the look of the sights -- that's a subjective viewpoint and correct for you. That said, I don't know where some of your other comments come from.... Cheating?

First, the barrel almost IS parallel to the slide (and it IS parallel to the frame) and it stays that way until the barrel starts to unlock -- when the barrel in some designs start to tilt UP. (Guns with rotating barrel designs -- at least one Beretta model does that -- keep the bore, slide, parallel throughout the firing cycle, but you still have muzzle flip.) How the sights are mounted on the slide have NO EFFECT on muzzle flip or Bore Axis. Put simply, Bore Axis is how high above the shooter's hand, the barrel's bore is located- and sights have no effect on how the bore axis (or how it's height) affects the shooter.

Muzzle flip is caused by a number of factors, all of which interact and affect each other -- i can think of several but there may be others:

1. How high the bore's axis is above the shooter's hand. --The higher the bore axis, the greater the tangential effect of recoil's force on the frame in the shooter's hand.
   
2. Frame weight -- a heavy frame is less easily moved or affected by recoil than a light one.
   
3. Slide weight (which can affect slide velocity).
   
4. How far the slide and barrel must travel.
   
5. The load used and the weight of the bullet (which can change the speed with which the bullet moves down the barrel). That in turn affects the speed with which the slide and barrel move to the rear.
   
6. The recoil spring(s) or recoil spring assembly used, or recoil dampening system, each of which can change the recoil impulse a bit -- but this is often more of a shooter "feel" thing, than something that greatly affects muzzle flip.
   
7. Shooter technique (such as how high you can get your hand on the grip frame without causing problems, Getting a higher grip is a practical way of countering a higher bore axis and it can help to reduce muzzle flip
8. Porting the barrel and slide, which uses gases from the powder's chemical reactions to redirect some of the gas pushing the bullet forward to hold down barrel down.

Once the slide starts to move to the rear -- movement caused by the other half of the "equal but opposite reaction" that pushes the bullet down the barrel -- the bullet quickly leaves the barrel (often before the slide has moved as much as 1/10th of an inch),. The slide and barrel movement continues to the rear and pushes against the top of the gun's grip frame (in the shooter's hand), a push caused by the rearward movement of the slide and barrel pressing the recoil spring and guide rod against the frame. Then when the barrel and slide hit their stops (or abutements) in the frame, even more recoil force is applied ot the frame and the shooter's hand. Because the frame is held in the shooter's hand BELOW the bore, the recoil force is transferred to the hand as a tangent force at the top of the grip frame, the hand is forced back in a twisting motion. As the gun tries to pivot in the the shooter's grip, the front of the barrel, slide, and frame have tilted up as they move to the rear.

Different recoil springs, different loads, better technique (in how you hold the gun), and even barrel porting, can all affect and moderate muzzle flip, but sight placement or sight design doesn't affect bore axis or muzzle flip.

 

[zaitcev]

First, the barrel almost IS parallel to the slide (and it IS parallel to the frame) and it stays that way until the barrel starts to unlock ...

Stick a pencil in, you'll see. On a classic CZ, the bore axis is not parallel to the top of the slide. It becomes parallel when the barrel cants down to unlock. This is how it differs from every other Browning-type action out there. The supposed advantage is, the slide does not have to continue to rub forcefully upon the barrel as it travels back. RAMI uses the exact same design, just a shorter barrel, so the angle is more extreme.

 

[nettlle]

Although I don't own a Rami I do own a PCR. CZ's are nice. Excellent quality, reliability, and accuracy. I have never stuck a pencil in my PCR's barrel. I have never seen the need to.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

On a classic CZ, the bore axis is not parallel to the top of the slide. It becomes parallel when the barrel cants down to unlock. This is how it differs from every other Browning-type action out there. The supposed advantage is, the slide does not have to continue to rub forcefully upon the barrel as it travels back. RAMI uses the exact same design, just a shorter barrel, so the angle is more extreme.

The CZ doesn't differ from every other Browning-type action out there. Whether the barrel is parallel to the top of the top of the slide or to the frame is irrelevant. What matters is whether the sights are aligned with the barrel. That's because you don't align the frame with the target, or the top of the barrel with the target, you align the sights with the target which should be adjusted or fit to be in alignment with the barrel. The relationship between the barrel and the top of the slide is absolutely irrelevant. It simply doesn't have anything to do with how the barrel tilts or the gun functions..

With a traditional Browning Short Recoil Locked Breech gun with a tilting barrel, the barrel must tilt for it to unlock. If it doesn't unlock, it can't get the fired casing out of the chamber, and it can't self load. When the frame, barrel, and slide are shorter, but the cartridge isn't, the amount of tilt required to unlock is greater. .That's because when the gun is smaller -- shorter slide, barrel and frame -- and the cartridge it's handling isn't, the slide must still move back far enough to guide the spent casing out of the chamber to hit the ejector. The slide must still move, but the barrel has less space to move in, and it must TILT so as to not interfere with slide movement.

About the only place the slide and barrel can rub against each other when the gun cycles is the opening on the front of the slide where the muzzle sticks out. When they design guns with short barrels they generally enlarge that opening so that the tilting barrel will not hit and rub the slide.

Folks who pick up sub compact versions of a gun they already own are often concerned because the barrel seems to be resting at the bottom of the opening in the slide, and they're afraid that the gun is going to be shooting DOWN. They think it should be centered in that opening. Most of the time it's position is where it needs to be, and the top of the opening on the front of the slide has been enlarged to prevent excessive rubbing or wear. The openings are sometimes almost oval, not round.​

Whether the top of the slide is parallel to the barrel/bore axis or frame has NOTHING to do with how the barrel and slide interact. It has nothing to do with the amount of tilt observed when the gun cycles. It also has virtually nothing to do with anything you've described. The top of the slide and its relationship to the barrel position (which is NOT the same as the gun's bore axis) is a non-factor in this discussion.

 

[zaitcev]

Whether the barrel is parallel to the top of the top of the slide or to the frame is irrelevant. What matters is whether the sights are aligned with the barrel.

Precisely. This is why, on all other guns, where the barrel is parallel to the top of the slide when the gun is in battery, the front and rear sights have about the same height. But on a CZ, they are different, with the rear sight taller than the front. This is because, as you astutely observed, the sight line needs to be parallel to the bore and not the slide. The difference is greater on the RAMI because its barrel is shorter.

Sounds that we're in a violent agreement, except:

Whether the top of the slide is parallel to the barrel/bore axis or frame has NOTHING to do with how the barrel and slide interact. It has nothing to do with the amount of tilt observed when the gun cycles. It also has virtually nothing to do with anything you've described.

This is where you're simply wrong. The difference is simple. On a conventional Browning-style gun, the tilt of the barrel continues to increase as the slide travels to the rear after it's unlocked and the barrel is initially canted. This much should be obvious, right? But this means that the front bushing continuously exerts upward force onto the barrel when it cycles back, then at the rear of the travel it must absorb the inertial of the barrel's rotation and force it rotating in the opposite direction (assuming a straight barrel and not something like SIG P290). But on a CZ, all the rotation is done when unlocking (and locking). All the rest of the travel of the slide proceeds without any additional tilting of the barrel. So, the force at the front of the slide is much smaller (it's not zero because the frame of the gun is flipping and this motion has to be transferred too, but it's a second order effect).

 

[guyfromohio]

Quality....great! However, I was disappointed with the feel of mine. I've owned G26s, HKp30sk, and a number of similar-purpose 10-shot subcompacts. By far, the Rami had the worst grip for me. Put in the extended mag and you might as well just carry a PCR or compact. Personally, I'd just go with the compact size CZ again. I sold mine quickly, but fortunately got what I paid due to the rarity of the BD at the time.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I've been busy elsewhere so it's taken me a while to get around to responding.

Whether the top of the slide is parallel to the barrel/bore axis or frame has NOTHING to do with how the barrel and slide interact. It has nothing to do with the amount of tilt observed when the gun cycles. It also has virtually nothing to do with anything you've described.

This is where you're simply wrong. The difference is simple. On a conventional Browning-style gun, the tilt of the barrel continues to increase as the slide travels to the rear after it's unlocked and the barrel is initially canted. This much should be obvious, right?

No, it's NOT obvious. There IS continuing tilt, and while it might be almost microscopic in long-barreled guns, it is very obvious in short-barreled guns.

Elsewhere in the reply from which the segment above was drawn, you contradict yourself, when you write “All the rest of the travel proceeds without any additional tilting of the barrel.” That's simply not possible – because two different things can cause barrel tilt – 1) the chamber end of the barrel dropping during the disconnection process, and 2) because the front of the slide stays connected with the barrel as the slide moves to the rear, that connection can also cause or continue the tilt. I'll address that later.

I'll say it again: How the TOP OF THE SLIDE aligns with the barrel or frame (or the angle at which the top of the slide sets in its relationship to the barrel) has no effect on barrel tilt. That's because the top of the barrel and the top of the slide are not functionally connected.

The “classic” CZ-75B is a standard Browning Snort Recoil Locked Breech (BSRLB) design. It has a 4.6” barrel and a slide that moves about 1.75” to the lock-back point. It can move a bit farther than that and that's what you do when you release the slide manually (not using the slide stop lever.)

• The chamber end of the CZ-75B barrel will eventually drop about 3/16th of an inch as it disconnects from the slide. During that drop the slide will start to guide the spent casing out of the chamber and push the casing against the ejector. It does all of this before it reaches the slide's lock-back point (and it will only lock back point if the magazine is empty) and moves farther to the rear.

While the slide can move beyond the lock-back point (which you see when you manually pull a slide that has locked back to release it,) that extra rearward slide travel distance has no obvious effect on the tilt of the CZ-75B's longer barrel. But because the front of the barrel and slide are still in contact, there has to be some additional tilt – as the front of the slide is moving to the rear UNDER the tilted barrel. It has to be increasing the tilt given that the other end of he barrel is now lower, even if it's only a very tiny fraction of an inch.

With the full-size CZ-75B, there is almost no visible barrel tilt at any point in the slide's travel from as it moves all the way to the rear. The amount of tilt is just hard to see or measure, and you probably need access to a “cutaway” gun (used for training) to measure it properly. .

The CZ P-07 is also a standard BSRLB gun. It has a 3.75” barrel and a slide that also moves about 1.75” to the lock-back point. And like the 75B, the slide can be moved beyond the lock-back point.

• Like the CZ-75B, the chamber end of the P-07 barrel will also eventually drop about 3/16th of an inch as it disconnects from the slide. That's when the slide starts to guide the spent casing out the chamber and quickly moves the spent casing to hit the ejector.
  
  
• But unlike the CZ-75B barrel, the chamber end of the the P-07 will continue to VISIBLY drop farther as the slide continues to the rear. That additional drop is not needed to make the extraction/ejection process work properly – because the casing is GONE before the travel is completed. But it is needed to allow the slide to move a bit farther. With the longer-barreled guns, there is plenty of barrel space to let the slide continue to the rear, but with shorter barrels, the front of the slide runs out of room. Letting the slide tilt farther frees up a small amount of space as the barrel moves to a near vertical position.

When manually cycling the gun, the front of the slide (which surrounds the barrel) will press against the underside of the barrel if the barrel doesn't get out of the way. When when the chamber end of the barrel hits its stop in the frame, the muzzle end of the barrel arguably still has momentum and will continue to tilt to the rear. (If no momentum, the slide will help it.) The slide must still go back even farther to pick up and strip the next round in the magazine, feed it into the chamber, and move the barrel back into it's proper firing position.

That extra barrel tilt gives the shorter frame and slide a bit more working room so that the slide can move to the rear a bit farther, and the associated barrel tilt is very obvious.

But this means that the front bushing continuously exerts upward force onto the barrel when it cycles back, then at the rear of the travel it must absorb the inertial of the barrel's rotation and force it rotating in the opposite direction (assuming a straight barrel ….

The barrel bushing doesn't absorb anything from the slide's travel. The recoil spring assembly does the absorbing – along with the shooter's hands and arms.

The bushing (i.e., the opening in the front of the slide) simply keeps the muzzle and the barrel in close proximity. As already noted, the front of the slide can cause barrel tilt, but it's not the only thing that causes barrel tilt. As the slide starts to move forward (powered by the recoil spring), the opening in the frame will pushes on the top of the barrel forward, which reduces the tilt – and the barrel lug, which is being pushed up by a round being chambered, will also cause barrel tilt to be reduced as the slide and barrel reconnect.

(assuming a straight barrel and not something like SIG P290). But on a CZ, all the rotation is done when unlocking (and locking).

The P290 has a straight barrel – SIG just added a Bull Barrel-like flare to the muzzle. That flare looks and seems to act like a barrel bushing when the slide is in battery before the shot is fired , but because SIG designs lock up at the rear of the slide, its hard to explain that strange muzzle shape seen in the image below. It has no other role during the gun's firing cycle. Despite it odd appearance, the SIG P290 is still a BSRLB design and works in the usual way..

(Other guns use a slight bulge in the barrel at the muzzle to properly position the barrel in the slide, and these guns still work in the standard BSRLB manner. You can see a less extreme version of this barrel design by looking at muzzle end of a S&W 4006 barrel..

...All the rest of the travel of the slide proceeds without any additional tilting of the barrel.

Without any additional tilting?

As I mentioned this earlier, the only time the slide moves and the barrel doesn't tilt (up or down) is during the first small bit of slide travel to the rear – when all movement is horizontal only – and when the barrel and slide are reconnected and returned to battery. Any other slide movement has to result in some type of slide tilt, up or down, but how that happens varies.

In the Browning Short Recoil Locked Breech design, the barrel and slide and frame have FIXED working relationship. If the bullet starts down the barrel, it will move a fixed distance forward while the slide and barrel will move related fixed distances to the rear.

• If there's no bullet, and the slide is being manually moved, the fixed relationship – minus the bullet – is still there. The barrel disconnects after the same amount of slide travel, and if you're letting it feed a round from the magazine into the chamber, the positions of the slide and barrel and frame are still the same. The source of power underlying the movement is different, but the movement is still a fixed relationship. If you've got a short-barreled gun, you'll see the barrel tilt, and depending on the slide's position on the frame, the amount of barrel tilt you see will vary.

That relationship works in the same way whether the barrel is long or short and whether the bullet is faster or slower – or if you move the slide manually. If the bullet moves faster, or you rack the slide more quickly, the other parts of the relationship move faster; if the bullet moves slower, the other parts move slower. And the bullet – regardless of velocity or weight – will always leave the barrel after the same amount of slide travel. (A faster bullet doesn't leave the barrel with more or less slide travel than a slower barrel – the bullet always leaves the barrel after the same amount of slide movement, The time required to cycle the slide is the only thing that changes.

If the chamber end of the barrel has disconnected from the slide, the muzzle end of the barrel is still in close proximity with the front of the slide, which surrounds the barrel. If one component moves the other will also move.

With long-barreled guns, the amount of tilt is hard to see, but it exists. With short-barreled guns the tilt is much more obvious.... but the extra tilt seen after the round is extracted allows the additional slide movement needed to strip a round from the mag and send them forward to the chamber.

So, the force at the front of the slide is much smaller (it's not zero because the frame of the gun is flipping and this motion has to be transferred too, but it's a second order effect).

The force at the front of the slide is the same as the force at the rear of the slide. The fact that the frame is flipping is irrelevant – because the slide and barrel are also flipping along with the frame – the entire weapon is affected by the recoil and the momentum passed to them by the equal but opposite action caused by bullet movement. The weight of the slide as it moves to the rear also disrupts the gun's balance in the shooter's hand -- but you have to remember that the various parts of the gun – barrel, slide, and frame – are locked in a fixed physical relationship that is dependent on slide and barrel movement on the frame, and is powered by the chemistry of the powder in the chamber and barrel and the bullet traveling down the barrel -- or by the shooter manually racking the slide.

 

[someguy2800]

If you think about the geometry of most pistols where the barrel is parralel with the frame when locked and the back locks down, the barrel does continue to tilt as the slide cycles. The front fulcrum is the center of the barrel bushing and the rear is the cam pin. The bushing is higher so as it moves rearward the angle between them changes and the front of the barrel is raised slightly.

I don’t see how this matters one tiny little bit though and arguing about it seems silly at least to me.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

This certainly has little to do with the RAMI, and I agree on that point. Arguing about barrel tilt IS a little silly, but I've learned a lot by following some of these types of arguments or discussions; my participation in them has included being on the wrong end and having to say, "you're right...I misunderstood."

When I see claims made that are simply wrong, I always tend to reply. And others reading here who are among those still learning may be led astray by accepting the wrong explanations, especially when they are offered without proofs or details.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

This is why, on all other guns, where the barrel is parallel to the top of the slide when the gun is in battery

I really don't understand why you keep making this claim.

1) It's demonstrably false. There are a great mean many guns with tapered slides so that the top of the slide isn't parallel with the barrel.

2) It's absolutely only a cosmetic thing. The top of the slide could be shaped like a wave or a cone or anything else. The top of the slides alignment to the barrel has absolutely no bearing on anything.

 

[armoredman]

Thank you, Walt, for a truly excellent and detailed dissertation - I certainly learned something,
My wife has a RAMI, and loves it. It was the first RAMI this side of the Mississippi river, to be exact, has thousands of rounds through it and has been perfectly dependable. She had a BD, but wasn't nearly as fond of it as the original.
I cannot shoot a RAMI without the 14 round extended mag, just doesn't work for me at all. Grip is too short with the 10 rounder. Other than that, fun and accurate little pistola.