Daggers, Boot Knives & SD Folders

[Gunfighter123]

While I like and own a few "boot" knives made by Gerber/Kershaw/Buck etc. --- the main problem I have with most factory made ones are the handle --- if/when a edged weapon gets blood/sweat etc. on it and the handle is like the above Kershaw -- the "butt" of the handle is not big or curved enough to stop the knife being lost from your grip.

Check out the Draven Havoc Barong below --- now that is a well thought out grip/handle


Another good handle design is on my Paragon Battle Bowie;


I also like a full tang on my blades --- easy to have a "skull crusher" or semi-point built into the pommel.

 

[hso]

Boot knives aren't "fighting" knives. They're the BackUpGun of daggers. They're not intended to be a substitute for a dagger and as such won't have all the characteristics of a fighting dagger. Their guards will be small, the blades shorter, the grips smaller, etc. because their purpose is to be carried all the time when a larger fighting knife isn't practical.

 

[hso]

Nem,

Escrima doesn't just focus on two sticks.

Modern Arnis is great stuff.

As Timbo said, these styles all are not limited to what a superficial observer might think. They include empty hand as well. The stick techniques are directly applicable to blades. They incorporate throws and locks. They're not just some guy with a stick wailing away.



If we're going to focus on FMA and stick fighting why not start another thread and keep this one focused on daggers like it was originally intended.

 

[shockwave]

Plus, knives like daggers are pointy sharp steel sticks

Yep. Take away the sticks and replace them with machetes and what do you have? Don't forget Chinese sword systems - these are devastating as well.

 

[shockwave]

Both the Kershaw and the Barong look like good items. I especially like the grip on the Barong. Looks like would mold to your hand.

 

[AStone]

If we're going to focus on FMA and stick fighting why not start another thread and keep this one focused on daggers like it was originally intended.

I agree.

I'm simmering ideas for an FMA thread ...

 

[hso]

I'm simmering ideas for an FMA thread ...

Best to learn some first or ask questions from those that have.

 

[AStone]

^ My point would be to ask just those questions,
in the same way that one would start a thread to learn about,
say, daggers or boot knives before choosing one.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Gerber Guardian

I mentioned somewhere that I have an original Gerber Guardian. Sharp little sucker. Cast aluminum handle with Armorhide coating.

Found some of the pictures I took when I dug it up from storage.

The spread can be seen here. Sorry about the lighting and quality.

Here's a couple of the better (less blurry) shots:







And one that's pretty blurry -- I'll replace it when I get a better shot:



I've had it since 1982.

It's never been carried.

Seemed like a good idea at the time.

 

[AStone]

Arf, on your advice, I looked at and handled a Guardian last week.

I like the blade a lot. Very nice.

But I didn't like the handle/grip at all. Too small, even in my smaller hand. I feel like I want a more substantial handle. I really like the SOG Pentagon Mini for that.

 

[AStone]

Steel

One of the top contenders for me now is the Kershaw military boot knife.

I'll save discussion of why for later. For now, just a question.

It's listed here as having a blade of "1.41116 German Stainless".

Can someone translate that for me, please? Is that good, bad or neutral?

 

[shockwave]

The "1.41116 German Stainless" is a European steel roughly analogous to US 440A. As you know, all blades have to balance a compromise of strength and sharpness and ability to hold an edge. The Kershaw looks good and is a great value for that price.

 

[hso]

The page you linked to has a steel chart on the tool bar. As shockwave says it's similar for 440A. Good rust resistance, but pretty much the low end of the steel performance chart.

Remember that a boot knife is not a utility knife and it will be carried much and rarely used (if ever). It doesn't have to be made of a steel heat treated so that it will make 100 cuts in manilla rope before sliding. It has to not break and it has to be sharp enough and tough enough to make a few cuts.

 

[p35]

If you have a problem with small handles, you better handle a Kershaw MBK before you buy it. I like mine, but the handle is pretty narrow.

 

[Izzy77]

HSO Wrote:

Izzy77,

Is the handle round like the Sykes-Fairbairn or oval?

Round like the S-F. Stronger steel than most SF copies today.

 

[Izzy77]

In many cultures, a popular counter knife move is to grab the SPINE on the knife, or to sandwich it in two hands [V] ( [ = a hand, V = the knife) an twist it out of the hand of the knife wielder. The longer the blade and wider the flats ( sides) the easier it is to leverage out of your hand.


So I would go with a SHORT single edge, or a good dagger for your self defense, of course if your state says you should not, then by all means carry a bigger Mora or Pukko / modern interpretation thereof.

The EKA W11

 

[hso]

a popular counter knife move is to grab the SPINE on the knife, or to sandwich it in two hands

I wouldn't say "popular". That's a very advanced and difficult move and not something that you're ever likely to face.

 

[AStone]

As shockwave says it's similar for 440A. Good rust resistance, but pretty much the low end of the steel performance chart.

Remember that a boot knife is not a utility knife and it will be carried much and rarely used (if ever). It doesn't have to be made of a steel heat treated so that it will make 100 cuts in manilla rope before sliding. It has to not break and it has to be sharp enough and tough enough to make a few cuts.

So, does that argue that even though that German steel is not the best, that it's good enough for a boot knife?

(Sorry, I'm a little slow tonight.)

 

[The Highlander]

440a should be fine for a seldom used backup blade. Get S30v or something equivalent if you plan on using the blade.

 

[AStone]

Got it. Thanks. That's what I thought Hso meant, but wasn't sure.

 

[hso]

Nem, You got it.

Izzy77, Col. Applegate and other designers improved upon the Sykes-Fiarbairn design by abandoning the round grip and switching to oval or rectangular grips that allow the knife to be indexed by feel. It also makes for a stronger more stable grip since the knife without a round grip is less prone to rotate in the hand. Eikhorn switched to a rectangular grip on this blade shape as well.

 

[Izzy77]

" HSO wrote:
Izzy77, Col. Applegate and other designers improved upon the Sykes-Fiarbairn design by abandoning the round grip and switching to oval or rectangular grips that allow the knife to be indexed by feel. It also makes for a stronger more stable grip since the knife without a round grip is less prone to rotate in the hand. Eikhorn switched to a rectangular grip on this blade shape as well. "

I have one of the square handled ones form Eickhorn, and prefer the round ones...not such an improvement in my book.

The Boker Applegate is a decent STAINLESS ( for better and worse!) version with a square handle...if your really wanting a foil type grip on a thrusting weapon like a dirk ( a flawed approach IMHO) the BOKER is a decent knife.

I would think a design patent had more to do with a grip change than "twisting" ...hard to make money off a good knife when the cheaper sheffield firms make knockoffs for the rest of the world. Marketing is everything....

Either way the ribs on the "round" Handle of the Eickhorn hold my hand very well. It's thinner round grip fits my hand better YMMV.

Ha Ha Cant believe I found this old article, Cooper Lives!

" Handgunner: I take it you are referring to the classic argument of which is more effective, a thrust or a cut. Flavius Vegetus Renetus wrote that the leaders of the Imperial Roman Legions had discovered in battle that the enemy was felled quicker with a thrust than he was with a cut. This discovery was later confirmed by fencing master Giacomo DiGrassi in the late 16th century-- about the same era of Pizzaro-- when pointed swords and pointed daggers with dull edges were the norm.

JC: Further support of this theory is demonstrated in the Battle of Balaclava where the sabers of the cavalry had little or no effect through heavy clothing.

Handgunner: Chopping is just not as effective.

JC: One of the most respected steel weapons is that of the Gurkhas called a Kukri. A Gurkha's discipline, courage and sense of humor are unsurpassed. As for their weapon, the Kukri, it can, with a lot of effort, behead a calf for ceremonial purposes on New Years Day. ( IZZY77 Comment, only with large ceremonial sword like Kukri's)

Handgunner: Have you ever stabbed anyone?

JC: No. When you have unlimited ammo, you have no need for a knife."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533210/

 

[shockwave]

In many cultures, a popular counter knife move is to grab the SPINE on the knife, or to sandwich it in two hands [V] ( [ = a hand, V = the knife) an twist it out of the hand of the knife wielder. The longer the blade and wider the flats ( sides) the easier it is to leverage out of your hand.

The reason a knife can be such an effective weapon is that it can be extremely difficult to disarm an assailant who has one. Grabbing at the knife is a great way to get your hand sliced. The Japanese sai and the jutte are interesting tools because they both have features intended to snag a blade and disarm the wielder.

In actual practice, one discovers that they don't work well for that purpose - rather, they allow for a block and perhaps a chance to close in. Also, the general commando style of knife use that boot knives are designed for is, arguably, sneaking up behind someone and stabbing them, not a frontal assault.

 

[Izzy77]

Did a quick test with my Eickhorn Round handle...

put blade in between a wooden desk and drawer, leaned on the drawer with force...was able to pry open drawer by twisting the blade, no slippage. AL handle left temporary stripe marks on hand...this is one secure knife.


I'm now convinced "new and Improved" square handles was a marketing and design patent ploy. The New Eickhorn handles are cheaper to make as they are plastic old style M16 handles ( at least the one I have).

 

[Izzy77]

Shockwave Wrote:
"The reason a knife can be such an effective weapon is that it can be extremely difficult to disarm an assailant who has one. Grabbing at the knife is a great way to get your hand sliced. "

Okay, well I personally know of someone who was attacked by a mob and disarmed in the way I described. He had a RANDALL 7 inch blade. And it was sharp, no assailants were cut. His neighbors and his G-D had to save him. His was big fellow and muscular to boot. ( multiple attackers)

again, you don't close your hands on the blade....OPEN PALMS.