Dead end designs.

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by BLACKHAWKNJ, Sep 30, 2022.

  1. BLACKHAWKNJ

    BLACKHAWKNJ Member

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    Handgun designs that have widespread recognition and are sought after but that manufacturers and later designers recognized had serious design flaws and manufacturing complications and have long since been dropped from production. Three that come to mine are the Luger, the Broomhandle Mauser-and the M1910/1934 Mauser. All are 1st generation designs that were very advanced for their day but now seem quite archaic and have been superseded by better designs. The Luger, with its
    toggle lock that nobody else has adopted, the Broomhandle with its awkward handling (Yes, I know-Winston used his to great effect -"I fired 10 shots, all necessary"). I have a 1933 vintage Mauser M1914, I find the disassembly a little tricky, the ergonomics poor, some of its design features-inserting a loaded magazine chambers a round-not to my liking.
    One thing about the JMB designs is they have what I call "modular" construction-i.e. they are fairly easy to field strip for cleaning and repair, components that are subject to wear and breakage,barrels, firing pins, springs, e.g. are easy to remove and replace.
     
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  2. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Depending on one's bias--and we all tend to have biases--there are any number of "dead end" designs.

    "Blow Forward" did not work out so well. Neither Volcanic, nor the later GyroJet rounds panned out so much.

    The Webley-Fosberry is a similar creature. The gas-seal Nagant revolvers could be another.

    Probably a case to be made about the "pull from magazine" designs, too.

    Gas-operated handguns, and rotating bolt designs are also thin on the ground.

    Now, each of these designs will have proponents as well as opponents.

    Firearms are seldom a "one size fits all" (or even "most") sort of proposition. Which is a good, as that means we can, each of us, find the "just right" for ourselves.
     
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  3. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Some modern designs that haven't been dropped perhaps should be.

    Certain Berettas that have a tendency to crack parts come to mind.
     
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  4. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    The typical current stiker design will hopefully end-up on that list.
     
  5. starling

    starling Member

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    CapnMac has a pretty good list. I like Gas operated and rotary barrel designs though. Walther CCP and Beretta Storm, Grand Power are very neat to me.

    The Gas sealed Nagant 1895s would be really fantastic if you paired it up with a true Single action hunting type revolver like a Ruger Blackhawk or similar type. Always been suprised nobody does it.

    Many strange designs come to mind but one standout was the Thomas 45. Neat pistol with a very strange delay that relied on Grip strength. Kind of a shame that Remington went down and we lost the new version of the R51 as well once they got most of the kinks worked out.

    You also have the roller delay like on the CZ52 thats interesting. Problem with that pistol was the thin chamber walls but the roller delay system works well. That pistol just needed a little more development.

    The real outside the box thinking stuff like the Gyro and Dardick were just too strange for people to wrap there head around. Both had potential but were short lived. Who wouldnt want a rocket gun or Triangular cartridges after all?

    Lots of strange stuff coming out these days though. Most of them niche or based around ideas from older designs or attempts but still ...its nice to see small manufacturers trying new things. Even some of this new non lethal tech is interesting. Maybe we get some less lethal full auto pistols and subguns at some point.

    As long as companies dont go totally cheap and still produce Quality built firearms with quality materials I am fine with it. I dread the day when craftsmenship completely leaves the firearms industry and everything is just cold plastic.

    Be nice if Titanium slides made a comback. Dont see much of that anymore. It was kind of a thing for a little while.
     
  6. starling

    starling Member

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    Im cool with Strikers if they would just make them with good single action triggers. Manufacturers just like to keep the costs down and people have low standards for nice triggers. Had a guy tell me a few weeks ago on how much he loved the Glock triggers because they were so nice. I had to do a double take on that one.
     
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  7. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I find most of the double-stack poly pistols of late have poor ergos... for me... and part of that is the very poor triggers.

    Friend of mine has a new Hellcat micro... he couldn't shoot it well enough to get it on paper, and he brought it to me. It was not a natural fit... I had to rest it to get it on paper. It did not fit my hand well... and that trigger! Gads! That's just an example, but that's my opinion of most of the mainstream poly autos.
     
  8. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I happened to think of another design not carried forward... the HK P7 and it's variants. Not necessarily the delayed lock, but more the squeeze safety.
     
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  9. C0untZer0

    C0untZer0 Member

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    The toggle-locked Pistole Parabellum /Luger P08

    Steyr GB-80 Barnitzke gas-delayed system
     
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  10. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    I've shot the Gyrojet. At close range, it bounces off the target, because, being rocket-propelled, it hasn't reached adequate velocity. At longer range, you can't hit the target.
     
  11. DukeConnor

    DukeConnor Member

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    Has anyone besides Springfield made a trap door ?
     
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  12. starling

    starling Member

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    HaHa...yes. I have seen videos of them being tested on youtube...great stuff. Obvioussly it needed more developement. Those rocket pistols and rifles were more or less prototype types in reality but the entire concept was pretty fantastic. Imagine if they had taken it further. Since the Ammunition involved timing imagine something like a dove hunting rifle where you could shoot a rocket at long range and have it timed to burst birdshot. Anything is possible. Heat seaking projectiles similar to the film Runaway (if anyone remembers that film anymore). Could also be effective as multi capable with survival firearms with the ability to shoot flares with a simple flare cartridge. The cartridges themselves were the most interesting basically bringing rocket technology into small arms on the commercial market. Military sure does like their rocket launchers so why not bring that technology to the civilian market?
     
  13. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Nope. But the trapdoor was popular amongst Irish rebels in the early 1900s -- their problem was ammunition but they could get .410 ammo and shoot that if they had a Trapdoor.
     
  14. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    For survival, the .45 ACP will do all that -- it can shoot tracers or flares, and birdshot as well. There's nothing a handgun-size rocket can do that a conventional cartridge gun can't do.
     
  15. starling

    starling Member

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    Gas delayed systems in pistols are highly overlooked. Imagine a new Walther PPK 380acp gas delayed version. All that harsh snap would be gone but the fixed barrel accuracy would remain giveing you a highly accurate and pleasent shooter. Walther uses it in the CCP but they skimped out on the materials and overall craftsmenship. Those pistols have serious potential but Walther chose to make it more of a budget pistol.

    Those Steyr GBs have all sorts of cool features.

    Couple more not mentioned is the Double Feed Magazine as in the Steyr GB and HK VP70Z. With modern tech materials (Polymer) the entire problem of frame thickness at the top of the mag well is minimized. Double feeds magazines are inheritly more reliable and easier to load while also having the the ability to hold more rounds.

    The other would be the trigger system on the Browning BDM 9mm that alowed to to turn the switch from normal DA/SA to Revolver mode where you had DAO but also the ability to cock the hammer for more precise shots. Kind of amazing to me that a trigger system like that did not catch on more.
     
  16. starling

    starling Member

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    your thinking in terms of simple projectiles when you have to wrap your head around rocket technology. I understand its hard. Rockets can do a Loooot of things that simple projectiles cant do. A 45acp projectile would be like comparing a rock to and jet in terms of capability.
     
  17. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    A rocket big enough to carry a nuclear warhead can do a lot of things. But within the limitations of a handgun, there's nothing a rocket can do better than a conventional cartridge. As I've pointed out, the .45 ACP can shoot ball, tracer, flares and shot. How can a rocket of a similar size do more?
     
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  18. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    I seem to remember H&R made a replica.
     
  19. C0untZer0

    C0untZer0 Member

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    I'm not sure why there aren't any roller-delayed pistols like the Heckler & Koch P9S. Everyone said it was a soft shooter and very accurate
     
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  20. Mizar

    Mizar Member

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    Ohh, they will, just be patient - rumors are, that gun companies are working on some new and revolutionary mechanism that they call "hammer fired"... Never seen before!
     
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  21. starling

    starling Member

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    Because tech has advanced since the 1960s. Where as Computers were once so large you needed an entire room to house them now people have more capability with something they can fit inside a human ear.
     
  22. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    I'm sorry, but if you can't shoot a polymer frame striker fired pistol worth a damn it ain't the gun....
     
  23. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    It's not really being able to shoot it... but shoot it well. In much the same way I don't shoot smallish revolvers well, but I can shoot a K-frame and up very well.

    Apples to apples... I can shoot my Kahr CW9 far better than my nearly identical CM9, simply because of the size of the grip. Oh, I'm sure once I get it out of the holster and on target, I can shoot the CM9 well enough to hit what I'm aiming at, but at the Moment of Truth, I can do it better with the CW9.

    As far as the trigger itself... striker-fired pistols are no different than anything else, rifle or handgun. A crappy trigger is, at the end of the day, a crappy trigger, no matter what it's on. I've shot a few poly strikers with abysmal triggers, and some, including a Glock, with very good triggers.
     
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  24. starling

    starling Member

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    Kind of funny how all these new fads are just recycled and marketed as "revolutionary" and "game changing". Most of the groundbreaking failures are often a product of bad marketing. Then sometimes many years later a company will copy it and throw fancy marketing hype around it. Im fine with it though. Whatever can get the firearms industry out of the Glock funk is good to me. Watching everyone just copy two designs (Glock and Keltec) for the last 20 years has made the pistol industry kinda stale IMO. Red dots on pistols isnt some new thing either.

    Now... whats been positive about the last 20 years is how much the quality has improved among budget pistols. That has been a major jump. The common man can get quite a nice brand new pistol in the $300 and below range. Many of which are made right here in the USA.... which I prefer. Be nice if a few companies would take that direction on centerfire DA revolvers but the sales are the hurdle because everyone wants tactical with 20 round magazines and what not.
     
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  25. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    I can see biometric digital "safeties," Identification Friend/ Foe, and electric priming becoming standard in the grim and not so distant future.
    All of it remotely validated and wirelessly overridden by those in charge, of course.
     
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