Decided to do something silly-just because I could 1911 in 380 acp

[zaitcev]

I don't think you can make a fullsize slide cycle on .380 with a locked break.

I'd take this bet if I had a machine shop. If RIA can make 22 TCM run reliably in 1911, a 380 ought to be no problem at all. its bolt thrust is greater.

 

[HisSoldier]

Again, it was a major disappointment when RIA, after saying they were going to make their baby roc pistol locked breech, gave in to whatever problems they had and changed it to blow back. All real steel and, I have always liked RIA guns. I hate aluminum, zinc alloy and plastic guns. No one ever explained why they changed their minds, I'd buy one tomorrow if the changed back.

 

[zaitcev]

I think the only all-steel construction, locked breech .380 ACP pistol in existence is Fromer Stop. Rohrbaugh has an aluminum frame (at least in the .380 version), and Remigton Model 51 is not truly locked (it's one of John Pedersen designs, so...).

 

[AbitNutz]

Update:
Just got a call from the barrel maker to say the barrel is done and ready to ship. I should have it shortly. The rest of the pieces/parts are ready to go so I should know pretty quickly if this is going to work or just be a nightmare.

 

[Tallball]

I think the only all-steel construction, locked breech .380 ACP pistol in existence is Fromer Stop. Rohrbaugh has an aluminum frame (at least in the .380 version), and Remigton Model 51 is not truly locked (it's one of John Pedersen designs, so...).

I think the little Colt Mustangs and similar Sigs are also locked breech. This one is a little bigger and has pretty much no recoil. My daughter doesn't like recoil (even as a 6'1" 16 year old), but she could shoot this thing easily when she was eight years old.

Colt Government 380

• Tallball
• Jan 23, 2018

 

[Miami_JBT]

GLOCK 42 is a locked breech designed.

 

[zaitcev]

The G42 is a good example, of course, but Tallball's Colt Government is better: it's way older! Both demonstrate that a locked-breech .380 is manifestly feasible.

However, the amount of energy scrubbed off the recoil is adjusted in a 1911 by moving the axis of the link a little. If the OP already has the barrel, it cannot be done anymore. The only tool he's left at this point is tinkering with the slide mass.

 

[Tallball]

The G42 is a good example, of course, but Tallball's Colt Government is better: it's way older! Both demonstrate that a locked-breech .380 is manifestly feasible.

However, the amount of energy scrubbed off the recoil is adjusted in a 1911 by moving the axis of the link a little. If the OP already has the barrel, it cannot be done anymore. The only tool he's left at this point is tinkering with the slide mass.

TYVM. My 32 revolvers, Colt 1903, and Colt Government Model kept my daughter interested in shooting after the 22's weren't exciting anymore.

I am very interested in this product. Smaller caliber handguns like 32's and 380's that have long barrels and decent-sized sights are very cool.

A full-sized 1911 in 380 would be a whole lot of fun to shoot.

 

[12Bravo20]

I do believe that the first Llama IIIA's were lock breech before they switched over to blow back. And the RIA and Browning are based off the old Llama design to some extent.

 

[zaitcev]

I do believe that the first Llama IIIA's were lock breech before they switched over to blow back. And the RIA and Browning are based off the old Llama design to some extent.

I am not up to speed at my Llamas, but I think that either III or Especiale were their last locked-breech .380, and all MicroMaxes were blowback. People keep saying different things about the IIIA.

The Baby Rock may be a clone of MicroMax (or a Star), but Browning is not. It is actually based on their older clean-sheet design, the 1911-22. That is why you can never confuse Baby Rock for a 1911: the grip angle is different. But 1911-380 is a true scale model of 1911. It is hard to tell in pictures that you're not looking at a full scale gun, unless something else is in the frame.

 

[funnelcake]

The early Llama Especial’s, Colt Govt. .380, and the Browning 1911-.380’s are locked breech.

As articulated above, slide mass is the variable. I think you’ll be hard pressed even with lightening cuts (ala early post-war Gold Cup’s or even something more extreme) to get reliable function. Especially with a Govt. length slide.

I had it on the bucket list at one point but reload 9mm & .38 Super so my interest waned. Still think it’s a cool project; I wouldn’t duck a decent deal on a Cmdr. or Officers slide to give it a whirl at some point.

Note Imbel does (did?) make a CCO size 1911 in .380...though it was blowback...

 

[12Bravo20]

Yes the first Llama IIIA pistols were lock breech. I don't remember what year they switched them to blow back. The one I have is older but is the blow back version. Here is my Llama IIIA next to my Rock Island 1911. Basically the only difference between the two (besides size) is the IIIA is blow back.

 

[bannockburn]

Tallball

I think the little Colt Mustangs and similar Sigs are also locked breech. This one is a little bigger and has pretty much no recoil. My daughter doesn't like recoil (even as a 6'1" 16 year old), but she could shoot this thing easily when she was eight years old.

Yes, both the Colt Mustang and the SIG P238 are locked breach designs. A lot of first time shooters are worried about felt recoil, especially when they see how small these .380s are. But it only takes one or two shots and you get that look of amazement on their faces once they realize these guns are so easy and comfortable to shoot (and with their single action triggers, quite accurate too)!

 

[Ed4032]

this won't be too hard. 9mm 1911's are already common. File off the locking lugs, weld a solid lug under the barrel, and bend the lips of the 9mm magazine until it works. Mill the firing pin channel a new hundreds to center, shim the old wall, bend a 9mm ejector. The lack of moving barrel angles will make feedlip tuning easier than normal. I don't think you can make a fullsize slide cycle on .380 with a locked break. Could probably do it without one easy enough. The end result would be accurate and fun.

Sounds so easy when you say it like that. I’ve got a file so I’ll get started. LOL.

 

[AbitNutz]

A lot of this is going to depend on how angled and smooth I can make the firing pin stop. This is where the slide contacts the hammer and the smoother it is, the easier the slide can return.

 

[Demi-human]

And the higher the stop’s angle initiates pressure on the hammer, the easier the slide will come back, on what little remaining energy it has left.

A full sized 1911 in 32 Auto?

Awesome! I need pics, I have a donor 1911.

 

[Hasaf]

I do believe that the first Llama IIIA's were lock breech before they switched over to blow back. And the RIA and Browning are based off the old Llama design to some extent.

I am going to chime in here and say, no, the Browning 1911-380 is not a Llama derivative. I had the opportunity to examine a Baby Rock, Llama 380, and a Browning 1911-380 side by side. I also had my Colt 380 Government Model with me for the fourth pistol in the comparison. This was at Handgun Haven in Salt Lake. Unfortunately, I did not think to take pictures as I compared the four.

The Baby Rock and the llama 380 are clearly related. The biggest give away is the extractor position. They were also both blowback. They looked like they might have been parts compatible, but I wasn't able to test it.

Neither the Baby Rock and the llama 380 shared heritage with the Colt 380 Government Model, which is parts compatible with the many Colt Mustang derivatives on the market, I expect, once Colt's patent expired (Kimber Micro, Springfield 911, Sig something, and I think I am forgetting a few more). I have tested it, the Colt 380 Government Model and the Kimber Micro are parts compatible.

The Browning 1911-380 is, like the Colt and its derivatives, nothing like the other three. While the 1911-22 is a blowback pistol, the 1911-380 is not. The High-Power style cut-out, similar to what is used on the Colt 380 Government Model, is immediately visible.

Obviously, none of the 380s are similar in size to a standard 1911. There is no Llama/Baby Rock in this picture because I decided not to go that route.


Ultimately, I decided on the 1911-380 as a carry pistol. The .22lr slide is on it in this picture for low-cost practice/plinking. As an observation, the 22 slide is significantly lighter than the 380 slide.


Returning to the point of the OP's project, It sounds interesting. I hope you will keep people informed of its progress.

 

[12Bravo20]

My memory is not good at times. There are so many new guns that are based off old models. The Baby Rock and the New Llama 380's are both made in the Philippines, maybe even in the same factory (I don't know). I stand corrected about the Browning.

Now if the Browning is closer to the older Colt design then it is based off the older Star pistols instead. In fact Colt worked together with Star and used Star Model D internal parts and slide with a domestically produced Star D frame. It was marketed as the Colt Pony.

http://star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/d/index.shtml

And Yes the first Llama IIA's were locked breach before being switched over to blow back.

To get back to the subject. I'm sure that one could get 380 to run in a full size 1911 with the right recoil spring weight and a blow back system since even the 22lr conversion work.

 

[Hasaf]

My memory is not good at times. There are so many new guns that are based off old models. The Baby Rock and the New Llama 380's are both made in the Philippines, maybe even in the same factory (I don't know). I stand corrected about the Browning.

Now if the Browning is closer to the older Colt design then it is based off the older Star pistols instead. In fact Colt worked together with Star and used Star Model D internal parts and slide with a domestically produced Star D frame. It was marketed as the Colt Pony.

http://star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/d/index.shtml

And Yes the first Llama IIA's were locked breach before being switched over to blow back.

To get back to the subject. I'm sure that one could get 380 to run in a full size 1911 with the right recoil spring weight and a blow back system since even the 22lr conversion work.

Having both, the Browning 1911-380 is nothing like the Colt 380 Government Model.

Thank you for the link. While the frame looks similar to the frame in this picture, the slide on the Colt 380 Government Model does not have that external extractor. It is interesting in that it offers yet another variant of the 1911 based 380 pistols.


Also back to the point, I have no doubt that the OPs idea can work. The 22tcm is evidence of a similar thing working. There are also probably working examples of the OPs idea in Brazil. As I understand in Brazil, due to odd gun laws, 380 is much more available and 380 pistols, that are not imported into the states, are more common and varied. However, that is just conjecture.

 

[12Bravo20]

Having both, the Browning 1911-380 is nothing like the Colt 380 Government Model.

Thank you for the link. While the frame looks similar to the frame in this picture, the slide on the Colt 380 Government Model does not have that external extractor. It is interesting in that it offers yet another variant of the 1911 based 380 pistols.
View attachment 962254

Also back to the point, I have no doubt that the OPs idea can work. The 22tcm is evidence of a similar thing working. There are also probably working examples of the OPs idea in Brazil. As I understand in Brazil, due to odd gun laws, 380 is much more available and 380 pistols, that are not imported into the states, are more common and varied. However, that is just conjecture.

After the Colt/Star joint venture with the Colt Pony, Colt did make some design changes when they came out with the 380 Govt. Model and the Mustang.

 

[C0untZer0]

Bill Laughridge of Cylinder and Slide offered a compensated 5" Government Model chambered in .380 ACP .... called it his "Full House Mouse". - meaning a 45 redone to shoot 380 ACP.

 

[Hal]

Dear US government,
There is a gentleman that goes by the screen name - AbitNutz - on the High Road dot org forum.
He is going to spend an untold amount of money on a project that will allow a 1911 handgun to shoot the .380 acp cartridge.

As an avid handloader myself, I know that if I wish to play around with something like that, I could just get myself a 1911 in either .38 Super or 9mm and downgrade the springs and load the ammunition down to .380 acp levels.
I'm also aware of the fact that doing that would take all the fun out of the idea & make me a "bringer of rain to the parade".

Getting back to the reason why I'm sending this.
In the cold hard world, there are people addicted to drugs and they spend untold amounts of money to support that illegal activity.
There are also people in areas of this country that willingly spend their hard-earned money on tobacco products that are priced so high only the true wealthy can afford them.
Which bring me to this.
Poster AbitNutz obviously has more "$$ than sense" and he is in no need of any further virus stimulus money.
Please add any future stimulus money to mine & direct it my way.

Thank you.



Just kidding - good luck with the build. I 've always wondered why there were "large" .380s

 

[Hasaf]

I came across this. It appears that, among his other barrel offerings for the 1911, he has 380 in the dropdown. Maby this is something people are doing

 

[HisSoldier]

The Colt .380 Govt model has very little internally that is related to a 1911, that's all appearances, the ignition system is derived from the Star D model.
All of my Llama pistols are locked breech, and I wouldn't buy anything less. They are as close to a 3/5 size 1911 as anything made, all steel, internal parts look like shrunk down 1911 parts, and if you have a good one (not bubba'ed) they are sweet shooters.
All the talk about the Browning .380 made to look like a 1911, are the materials gun steel or are they aluminum? I know a lot of the .22 "1911" look alikes have Zamak frames.

 

[Hasaf]

The Colt .380 Govt model has very little internally that is related to a 1911, that's all appearances, the ignition system is derived from the Star D model.
All of my Llama pistols are locked breech, and I wouldn't buy anything less. They are as close to a 3/5 size 1911 as anything made, all steel, internal parts look like shrunk down 1911 parts, and if you have a good one (not bubba'ed) they are sweet shooters.
All the talk about the Browning .380 made to look like a 1911, are the materials gun steel or are they aluminum? I know a lot of the .22 "1911" look alikes have Zamak frames.

On the Browning 1911-380 the slide is steel and the frame is a polymer. It makes for a very light carry pistol. The slide on the 1911-22 is significantly lighter; however, the frame is the same polymer.

That said, the Browning 1911-380/22 is significantly larger than the Colt 380 Government Model or the current generation of pistols derived from the Colt Mustang. The difference between the Mustang, and its derivatives being that they have a slightly shorter grip, and a corresponding smaller magazine capacity, than the 380 Government Model.

As I said above, I have had the opportunity to closely examine the current Llama 380, the RIA 380, the Browning 1911-380, and the Colt Government models side by side and field stripped. The Llama 380 and the RIA 380 were so similar that they could easily be suspected of being manufactured on the same line. They were not based on the Colt 380 Government Model. Again, the examination showed few similarities, other than a similar general profile. The Browning 1911-380 was not similar to either of the others, it is a significantly different design.

I would love to get my hands on a Star Model D, just to look at it aside the Colt. In the pictures I have seen, I see differences between it and the Colt 380 Government Model; but, but having not examined one, I can not be too sure of the differences other than the extractor. Yes, the extractor really stands out as a difference.

I know with certainty that the current generation of mustang derivatives, Kimber Micro, and the like are similar enough to the Colt 380 Government Model that the slides will interchange and function (yes, I got curious), Many of the other parts are also interchangeable. The RIA Baby Rock and Llama while similar to each other, are not similar to the Colt 380 Government Model family and derivatives. The Browning 1911-380 is again different from the others mentioned. I have never gotten my hands on a Star Model D to compare it to any of the above; however, in the pictures I have seen, I see differences. Yes, I would like to examine one and at least take some pictures. When this planet opens for business again, I hope to find one at a gun show, with an accomodating vendor who will allow me to field strip one and take the pictures that I would like (or to find one real cheap).

However, one must bear in mind that none of this has any relevance to the project of building a standard 1911 in 380. While the Browning 1911-380 is very similar to the standard 1911 (baring size and weight. . . and a bunch of other stuff) it is not the same. I doubt that there is a single interchangeable part in the entire pistol.

This leads to two requests:
Those of you who have a Llama 1911-380 with a locking breech, Can you please remove the barrel and take a picture of it?
I know the one I looked at was a straight blowback. However, there seems to be a consensus that the older ones were not straight blowback. I would just like to see a picture.

Those of you who have a Star Mode D, Can you please field strip it and take some pictures of it?
I would love to see the inside of the frame to see the internal parts that show when field striping. I would also be interested in the barrel locking and various dimensions. I am just curious how similar this pistol is to the Colt 380 Government family.
There is this picture (I have not copied the image because the picture clearly says not to) and I do see a lot of similarities, but I also see significant differences. I would also like to see a top view of the frame, a bottom view of the slide, and some basic dimensions.

Without pictures, everything said is conjecture. Back to the point, none of this has any relevance to the project of building a standard 1911 in 380 (which I still don't understand the point of, other than to do it, which can be its own satisfaction).

The only purpose I can think of, beyond the satisfaction of doing it, is if one is in a bullseye league that mandates the use of a 1911 pistol. In that case, there is a clear value in getting the recoil as low as possible. However, in that case, I would recommend starting with very lightly loaded 9mm loads using 380 bullets (remember, never take reloading advice from random strangers on the internet, because I might be a complete idiot). However, the fact that someone makes a barrel for this project, as evidenced in a post above, indicates that this may not be as unusual as it seems to me.

(wow, talk about a trip down a rabbit hole, this article provides more information, but I have things I ahve to do today, I will get back to it later)