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Deciding the fate of the FN 5.7x28

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by cz85cmbt, Dec 31, 2009.

?

What do you think of the 5.7

Poll closed Jan 10, 2010.
  1. Out of place varmint cartridge with few uses and can't find its niche

    59.6%
  2. Super cool man stopper, great defensive cartridge.

    40.4%
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  1. cz85cmbt

    cz85cmbt Member

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    So what is it, an out of place varmint cartridge that really doesn't have niche, or a super cool man stopper never seen before until now.

    Me, I think it is a varmint cartridge that really does not really compete well with other varmint cartridges.
    My beefs with it:
    Wound track with commercial ammo is that of a .22 magnum (even praising articles say this)
    little capacity advantage in handgun vs other conventional calibers
    Armor piercing, so isn't every other pistol caliber with the right bullet, however armor piercing handgun rounds are illegal
    ammo is still pretty pricey ($20 per 50)
    Not a reloaders dream
    In pistol configuration (5" barrel) it squeaks out the barrel at a measly 1730 +/- generating 250-maybe 300 foot pounds, .22 mag type energy

    Counter points that I've heard that don't add up
    It tumbles and creates a massive wound channel especially in it's penetrator style military round
    -All bullets "yaw" when hitting their target. although I have to say that slow handgun bullets do this very little and hardly get a chance to in the body, energy from a handgun of 250 to maybe 300 foot pounds with not a 100, 120, 158, or 230 grain bullet but a 32-40gr bullet simply would not penetrate far or would yaw little and make a pathetic wound track
    Military rounds are loaded them much hotter
    -Nowhere is this evidence presented and doubt it would make a spit of difference in a pistol
    It has 450-550 foot pounds of energy
    -only out of smg and carbine barrels, 9mm also is able to obtain at least mid 500's in foot pounds out of similar length barrels, the 5.7 gets even more juice undoubtedly by its bottle necked nature
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2009
  2. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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  3. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    How bout a super cool varmint cartridge with great niches and some mild potential as a defense round?
     
  4. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Acceptable, probably even good, as a round for a fully automatic, close quarters carbine...Yes; anything else...No.

    I really like the PS90, but can't bring myself to buy one in that uninspiring round, I would love it if they would chamber it in .30Carbine (about the same cartirdge OAL). The 5.7 has power approximately equivalent to a .22Mag., now how do you feel about it?

    :)
     
  5. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    I was pretty sure the 5.7 was quite a bit better than the 22Mag. :scrutiny:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0npFXEHfeA0

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/myth-busting-22-magnum-vs-5-7x28mm/


    But I'm with you on the 30 Carbine! That would be really nice. Have a P90 style 30 carbine with a AMT/High Standard style 30 carbine pistol. Oh yeah... :D
     
  6. cz85cmbt

    cz85cmbt Member

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    I put a long list of reasons I dislike the cartridge in my opening case. Please let us get a good conversation going. Bear in mind people that this cartridge was designed for dual use smg/carbine with a mated pistol. I say it fails abysmally as a handgun cartridge and is at best an ok carbine smg caliber that gets blown away by the .223 and meets the 9mm possibly on equal footing here but I'd rather go with a modern loaded 9mm or .45 hollow point than .22 caliber 40 gr bullet at the same energy level.
     
  7. elmerfudd

    elmerfudd Member

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    It might make a good cartridge for a bolt action rifle. Kind of the same niche as the various rimfires, but reloadable. Something for shooting squirrels and possums and maybe doing some target practice at 150 yards.
     
  8. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    They are picking the strongest of rounds (max loads according to Lyman's 49th Ed. and standard commercial 5.7 are both loaded to about 1750fps not 2000fps) vs. standard .22Mag. rounds, and the bullet construction is much better for the 5.7. I will give you that it is marginally better, but it is still weaker than the .22Hornet and far weaker than the .223Rem which it is often compared to.

    I wouldn't mind that at all, and have always wanted a .30Carbine auto-pistol, but they are not currently made, not terribly reliable (from what I hear), and expensive...but they are like a signal cannon when fired. :D
     
  9. rangerruck

    rangerruck Member

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    the Left's lover, Obama, has echoed sounds out there, like he would like to get rid of this one, so it must be even better than we think.
     
  10. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    True...anyone up for a good ole fashioned group buy just for spite. :evil: While I rag on the cartridge (because it is not as it has been claimed, and simply not my cuppa-T), I am glad that it exists, if only because someone else likes it (and that is all that matters).

    :)
     
  11. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    The .22 Hornet has been doing this very successfully for 80 years and counting.

    That's my thinking as well.
     
  12. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    While I'm no friend of the left or Obama, just because they want to ban something doesn't mean that it is particular a good firearm/round/accessory.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rGpykAX1fo

    Heck, it doesn't even have to exist:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRQqieimwLQ&NR=1


    I'd say the reason the loons want to ban the 5.7 round and the weapons that shoot it is because of the SS190 round which is touted as being able to go through Kevlar plates.

    But as I understand it (an please correct me if I'm wrong), that ammunition is supposed to be restricted to LE and military. But it seems that some still finds it's way onto the open market:
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=152067925

    Got a spare $775 ($15.50 per bullet) laying around? And IMHO, you're gambling that this isn't a scam anyway.


    So the anti-gunners will latch on to anything they think they can use to ban something regardless of it's grounding in reality. Doesn't mean that something is by default a good firearm/round/accessory.



    Hopefully High Standard will have one soon since they are bringing back the AMT line. And hopefully AMT will have better quality and consistency with the AMT line than AMT did. They're slow bringing them back...from what they told me when I called, it's because of the military orders they are filling. I told them to take their time and take good care of the military first.
    But I know I'll be buying one...I always like to support the Texas firearm companies :D
    http://www.highstandard.com/
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2009
  13. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    No way...you jest....WOW!...only in .22Mag...NO!

    What a let down...hopefully the .30Carbine will be along shortly, and there will not be the reliability issues reported in the AMTs of the past.

    :)
     
  14. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    never never land...never land here!
    Oh no...not again...say it aint so...say it aint so!!!

    I quit!
     
  15. EdLaver

    EdLaver Member

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    Didn't the Fort Hood murderer use a Five Seven?
     
  16. stubbicatt

    stubbicatt Member

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    I remember reading somewhere that supposedly most homicides committed with a firearm are carried out with the lowly 22 long rifle. Admittedly, this is not the place to start a conversation on self defense type ammunition, but perhaps in this instance it is a good jumping off point. If the 22 long rifle is adequate to the task, then this round having a similar bullet weight at an even higher velocity ought to have some merit in this role.

    It is what the lunatic in Fort Hood used. He killed several people with this round.

    Also, didn't the guru Jeff Cooper say that a handgun is what you use to fight your way to a rifle?

    Personally I wouldn't feel outgunned with one of these pistols or carbines for close range encounters.
     
  17. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    3. None of the above.
     
  18. dirtyjim

    dirtyjim Member

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    i'd like to have it in a full size rifle for a plinker just to have something a little different.
    ptg makes rem700 bolts for it & the chamber reamers are available.
    zastava should also be chambering their mini mausers in it, i think those would sell like hot cakes
     
  19. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    It was conceived as an armor-piercing PDW cartridge for military/LE use. It has no practical niche beyond that role.
     
  20. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    Neither. It has a niche, primarily (IMO) in very compact carbines like the FN PS90, I think, but the tradeoff you get for the light weight and compact package is the ballistics.
     
  21. black_powder_Rob

    black_powder_Rob Member

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    It was designed to be a rear echelon weapon for support personal. Its killing power comes from being more controlable in full auto. (I am talking about the p90 packaging.) In civilian legal firearms it is a varmint cartridge first and a defense round last. IMO
     
  22. cz85cmbt

    cz85cmbt Member

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    The pdw concept. at least as the military has tried to define it is a ridiculous concept. In regards to full auto giving it killing power, almost every military professional I've heard talk about full auto say that it is not useful in any platform other than machine guns, in the realm of personal weapons (one man weapons that are not vehicle mounted) this really only encompasses light machine guns like the 249 which has a considerable amount of weight (not to mention capacity) to be able to sustain accurate bursts of full auto fire. Some may argue that the cartridge is very controllable in full auto and could be used in close quarters for clearing out a room of bad guys. This doesn't wash for me, under this usage a person would go into a room and dump a magazine across the room, not a great idea considering there can always be non combatants in the room and I doubt you are confirming targets as you spray bullets and I fail to see where other pistol calibers with or without armor piercing rounds could do the same thing. I'm truly surprised it has been close at all, I didn't think anyone liked this cartridge. And if you think there should be another option tell me what it is.
     
  23. HGUNHNTR

    HGUNHNTR Member

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    I don't care what it looks like on paper. It is a riot to shoot out of the pistol. I have had loads of fun toting it through the woods, and for me thats what its all about. If I can get 21 rounds of full power 22 mag rifle performance in a lightweight polymer handgun, thats awesome by me. I spend more time walking the woods and hunting predators than shooting home intruders or liberating small countries.
     
  24. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Wrong, the problem is controllability...a lightweight carbine firing a comparatively anemic round is very controllable. You do not need to just spray recklessly, controlled bursts make the weapon system very useful much like a MP-5 in the hands of a well trained soldier (but less training should be necessary as it offers even greater control in FA). The M4 firing semi-auto is undoubtedly just as good as firing short bursts out of a P90, but at the expense of greater weight, longer OAL, and unnecessary range. I think the P90 fills a good (but limited) roll very well. IMO the PS90 does not as you loose the controlled FA capability.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2009
  25. cz85cmbt

    cz85cmbt Member

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    special operators and tactical training experts around the world have little or no use for full auto fire in anything but squad automatic weapons, not battle rifles, assault rifles, or even sub machine guns. And if you read my full post I did say controllability is the issue.
     
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