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Declining Quality and Craftsmanship is VERY Frustrating!!!

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by soonerboomer, Jul 31, 2009.

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  1. soonerboomer

    soonerboomer Member

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    Why can't they just make things right?!? :banghead:
    I saved up my hard earned dollars to buy the respected Smith and Wesson 642. After taking it to the range, I get home to clean it and discover what looks like tooling marks or scoring on the INSIDE of the barrel. (It kinda looks like the little ridges found on the top of the front sight of the J-frame revolvers) What's up with that? How can quality control be so poor. How on earth do you get scoring on the inside of a barrel anyway. Yes, this gun was purchased new.
    Not only guns, but lots of stuff is just flat out poorly engineered, poorly manufactured, and won't hold up worth a flip. So many products today are just a pile of :cuss:
     
  2. AirplaneDoc

    AirplaneDoc Member

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    While I 100% agree with you. There should be no need to inspect a firearm from a "quality" manufacturer. Did you have a opportunity to inspect it before you signed the papers? Most reputable dealers assuming they agreed there was a problem would allow you to reject it even if it were a special order as they could ship it back to the factory.
     
  3. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    I wonder if S&W is overwhelmed with J-frame orders.

    My 642 is flawless, but it's a few years old. Still, I've seen a lot of flawless J-frames out there, in addition to mine.

    Lately, I read stories of J-frames with issues.
     
  4. elsullo

    elsullo Member

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    Huge Cylinder Gap

    I have been looking to buy another S&W airweight for six months or so but have not yet seen a decent one. Every one I look at has a wide gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone, like maybe eight-one-thousandths. My fifteen-year-old S&W snubby has a gap of about FIVE one-thousandths! I won't settle for anything less, and S&W just does not care.......................elsullo :(
     
  5. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    Guys, companies are taking EVERY shortcut they can now days...with the cost of everything increasing to manufacture a firearm, and the public not wanting to absorb this increase companies are forced to do this...albeit from corporate greed!

    How does that 642 shoot? Is it fouling excessively? Is it accurate enough for your desires?

    It is a SHAME how most American industry has succumbed to unacceptable quality practices to keep revenue at the level the greedy CEO's want.

    They(CEO's) can't see that years from now, when the factory is closed, due to people not buying their crappy product, the money in their pocket will be gone... live for today, right.... not!

    It isn't just S&W but most firearm manufacturers are taking ridicules shortcuts today.

    Call Smith and tell them how you feel, and this is the 'last' S&W product you'll be acquiring and you'll do your best to turn as many people away from them as you can... also note to them that you are a 'young' man and have plenty of time left to generate BAD press concerning them...:D
     
  6. kda

    kda Member

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    Elsullo, you had my heart going pitti-pat for a moment there. So I pull out the pair of brand new S&W 637s I recently purchased from stock which I know that Sportsman's Warehouse just received and the gap is a tight .005.

    I wonder what is going on with the revolvers you are seeing. Well, I'm not sure you should give up hope for I own two recent 637s that prove you should be able to find what you desire. Hey, I got two airweights and didn't even know enough to worry about / look for / demand that standard.

    That said, I do agree with the general observation about the quality decline of manufactured goods. I just bought a Remington 597 22 LR that is literally a piece of junk. I'm in the process of trying to send it back. If Remington won't make it right, I'll have no choice but to toss it into the trash and take my $200 loss ... it is simply unusable as sold.
     
  7. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    I think you've got it backwards. They are lowering the product standards to reach the price point at which the public wishes to purchase the item while maintaining the profit margin necessary for business.

    Eveyrone wants lower prices. This is the consequence.
     
  8. rogertc1

    rogertc1 member

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    soonerboomer what happened to the Kel-Tec PF-9 you bought in May...did you trade it in???
    You should have bought a Taurus!!
     
  9. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    I think you are looking at what is left behind by the EDM process, which uses electricity to erode away steel to create the rifling. I have not found it to cause problems with jacketed bullets, but it does tend to collect lead and never let it go, so I tend not to use many cast bullets in them.
     
  10. Lou McGopher

    Lou McGopher Member

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    Came here to say this.

    It's the consumers who are to blame here.
     
  11. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Well, yeah, but USFA makes essentially perfect guns the "old fashioned way" -- hand fitting, careful inspection, etc. -- and charges just a bit less than does S&W. And Ruger manages to put out a product that, while not as well-finished as S&W, does not display the cost-cutting measures that have recently become so noticeable on S&W products -- and Ruger charges significantly less for their wares.

    I wholeheartedly embrace capitalism, warts and all, but I don't think that's the whole explanation here. And while I very much want to embrace S&W products, they just continue letting me down.
     
  12. dom1104

    dom1104 Member

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    ok Wow. just wow.

    Smith and Wesson has SUCH brand loyalty, that people will line up to say its the consumers fault.

    That.... is just ridiculous.

    I am speechless.
     
  13. Nicodemus38

    Nicodemus38 Member

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    if you use modern toleranceing systems, you can have iso accredidation as well as putting out a sloppier product. its all in paperwork.

    Sadly, revolvers arent the main product line anymore. as a result youll see the quality slipping ever so gradually. Finally everyone will put out a revolver that isnt as nice and tight as a quality sw tip up from 1897.
     
  14. indiandave

    indiandave Member

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    I have a 642. It's 2years old. Never had a problem with it and there are about 2,000 rounds through the little mule.
     
  15. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    I have yet to see a poorly made Smith & Wesson revolver at a store. Other than the lock, what is the problem? Admittantly, I don't pay attention to the semi-auto designs from just about all of the manufacturers. So what exactly is this problem?
     
  16. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    My Model 21 "classic" had throats .004" smaller than bore diameter. Leading was terrible, and the EDM'd barrel means that I can't get it completely out. Accuracy, of course, was non existent. It also had nickel plating built up around the chamber mouths, which meant that extraction had to be done one case at a time, with a screwdriver. I honed the throats and removed the nickel build-up with a jeweler's file, and except for the EDM'd bore the gun works adequately now. For the $1000 retail price tag, QC should have caught this stuff before the gun went out -- and a .44 Special that only works with jacketed bullets is a bit silly, IMO.

    I also have a Model 22-4 "Thunder Ranch" that came with headspace so badly under spec that you couldn't fire the gun without rotating the cylinder into position by hand. I took it to the S&W warranty repair center which is about an hour's drive from here. They had the gun for a month and did not fix it. I tried the gun with dummy rounds in front of the gunsmith, and it still tied up. He said "Well, if it ends up being a problem, just bring it back". I said "It's an obvious problem right now!" and he just shrugged and wandered off. So I sent it to S&W directly, and after they had it for a month, they sent it back WITH THE SAME PROBLEM! I still could not get any factory .45 Auto loads to work in it, and .45 AR loads with the thick rims were even worse. I finally just machined .004" off the cylinder face myself and the gun now works perfectly and is properly headspaced. And with full power hardball it is possibly the most accurate revolver I own.

    And that sums up my experience with S&W lately: diamonds in the rough, perhaps, but the "rough" is not reflected anywhere in the price.
     
  17. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    The fact you think this has anything to do with S&W brand loyalty indicates you fail to grasp even the most basic meaning of my post. Pretty much any company can be substituted and the effect would be the same. Consumers want more perceived value for their dollar. It doesn't matter whether it is a S&W revolver, a box of Corn Flakes, or impact sprinkler head.
     
  18. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    Jorg is right. You're all just becoming poorer, but don't see the big picture to realize it. Inflation and crooked banking practices have turned you into impoverished people, though you work harder and are more productive than ever. Do the math, you're being screwed, have been for years, it's just really becoming obvious now.
     
  19. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    Did anyone watch the National Geographic channel show this week that featured the S&W factory and how they make the Model 500?

    The final step before they send it to the range (to have 3 shots fired) is an inspection by a long-term, highly qualified employee. The guy was slick and did a lot of it by feel.

    He did a 25 step checkout in a minute or less.

    A couple of minutes of the episode is on the NatGeo site. It's the second of the 4 parts; click on the 2nd box under the viewer.

    http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/factory-floor/3366/Overview#tab-Videos/05117_00



    John
     
  20. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "it's just really becoming obvious now"

    Just? Did you really just find out about this? Where have you been? I personally know people were talking about when I was a kid in the '50s.

    "have turned you into impoverished people"

    You? You who? Oh right, you're from the perfect country and are making pronouncements from high on your throne. Give me a break will ya and lose the holier than thou attitude.

    John
     
  21. chevyforlife21

    chevyforlife21 Member

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    a agree i hate how they keep putting more and more plastic into guns and some arent bein made in the good ol usa anymore
     
  22. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    John boy I'm not against you, my gov't takes all the money I make from January to July. Just saying when family's had to get 2nd jobs to cover the bills they complained, then adjusted, and accepted. Now people decide if they really need fresh fruit, with two salaries. Just giving background to what Jorg was saying. I love the States and would like to live in a couple of them, but the short-term public memory is a problem.
     
  23. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    As long as consumers put price ahead of everything else and will only consider goods based on that, poor quality will be the result. This has NOTHING to do with "greedy CEO's" - that's just ignorance and wealth envy showing. It has everything to do with them trying to compete with the Chinese stuff folks seem to want because of the prices.

    Quality COSTS - if you're not willing to pay for it, don't complain about what you get....
     
  24. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    I don't think handguns are as good now as they were 40 or 50 years ago as built by the major manufacturers. Ruger barely existed then and were making their sheet metal Mark I semi-auto 22 pistol. That's why until the GP100, I considered Ruger and Taurus about equals.

    (Added) I have always liked the Diamondback revolver. I remember those that know guns commenting that the Diamondack was not as well made as the double action Colt revolvers from the 30's and 40's. I honestly didn't understand their comments as a saw a near perfect revolver in the Diamondback. It was what you couldn't see that counted.....
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2009
  25. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

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    Stay off economics and politics and into guns, or this thread will sadly not last the night.....
     
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