Deer hunting: 5.56mm, .308, etc...

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Jadecristal

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I'm considering deer hunting for the first time this year. The only rifle I have is my Bushmaster M4gery, which I understand IS legal for hunting deer here in WI, but... I'm not convinced that it's a good idea. On the other hand, I REALLY don't want to spend more money that I don't have, if it's avoidable. With that in mind, I propose the following questions (mainly because I trust the people here in aggregate more than the person at the gun counter at my local Gander Mountain):

1.) Will my M4gery be sufficient for taking down a deer, and if so, what would preferred ammunition be? With a 1/9" twist, I'm thinking it can more-or-less stabilize up to 67-ish grain bullets, but if I can stick with something a bit smaller, that might be good.

2.) If the answer to (1) is "no," what rifle should I look at? Please note that things such as "aesthetic value" matters little, while things like "doesn't hurt" and "easy to clean" do matter. I think I'd prefer a synthetic stock. A NATO or military round is a must in my book, unless someone gives me a good reason to look at something other than .30-06 or .308. Then again, with this being more of a "sporting" (how I HATE that word) rifle, maybe I wouldn't be able to use the purely NATO version of .308 anyway?

I admit to not too much familiarity with other rifle(s) outside mine, but I'm more than willing to learn. And if Bushmaster hadn't discontinued their .308, maybe I'd just be looking at that instead. Maybe I still should...

Looking forward to responses, and thanks in advance...

Jadecristal

PS-Before I get yelled at, yes, I'm planning on hunter safety first, if I go. Especially since you have to, period, to get a license in this state if you were born after 1970-something. And because it will count for my FL CCW.
 
i have eaten meat from two deer killed with a mini-14. 5.56 will work, i recomend a 70 grain bullet that fragments or reallypeels back.
 
so if not 5.56mm are you looking for an excuse to buy a .308 anyway? because there's always the surplus rifle option like an SKS or Mosin Nagant.
 
Most people who hunt deer do so in places like Texas, where the deer are much smaller than where you live.

I'd recommend at least a .243 Winchester for Wisconsin deer. If price is a problem, look at Stevens -- they have a very nice rifle for a very low price.
 
Unless you are extremely confident you can hit a moving deer in the just the right spot at 100+yards, I would stay away from the 223/5.56 rifles. A 30.06 or 308 would be perfect. You can generally get a Mossberg, Stevens or Savage with scope (new) for less than $400. You can get a used Remington or Winchester bolt action in the same price range. From what I've read, stay away from the Remington 710.
If you are not set on a 308 or 30.06, you can get a good used 30-30 for less than $300.
 
I hunt quite a bit with an AR - only not in 223/5.56 NATO. I suspect that a 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, or 7.62x39 would be better choices in an AR platform. If you want to stay in the AR platform, you could always get a new upper in an alternate caliber (although you could get a decent Savage bolt action rifle for the same cost).

Most folks that I know that hunt with a 223 take neck shots, and they're DARN good shots. If you've not done it before, the first time out is probably not the time to try it with a 223.

The Winchester 64gr PowerPoint is a popular hunting round in 223.
 
Oh yeah, I don't know about Wisconsin, but in many states you are required to use a hollow or soft point, so you couldn't use a pure NATO 308. ANother option is to get a Garand from the CMP.
 
I killed my first deer with a Mini-14. So while I know it can be done, I don't advise it. I was singuarly unimpressed with the deer's reaction to taking that little bullet to the chest. It calmly took two steps forward behind a tree then stood there and watched me for the better part of a minute before lowering its head and coughing up blood. I understand nothing can be counted on for the BANG-flop effect 100% of the time if shoulders or spine aren't hit, but running is a deer's natural response to danger. If a gun can't make a big enough impression on a deer for them to run, or try to run, when they are shot by it, something is wrong in my book. I've seen deer shot by an SKS, .270, 06, 7mm Rem, and .300 Win, and all of them to a one ran like hell or tried to when they were shot. The .223 is the only round I've ever had fail to make that sort of impression on a deer. And the wounds were so small--enterance, exit, and inside--that it is a good thing too.
 
All of the kills I've made on deer with the .223 have been one shot deals. Didn't even take a second step and I aimed for the shoulder. Of course, I've seen them shot with heavier rounds with no reaction. I think it has more to do with where you hit them.
 
Correct, not FMJ.

Oh yeah, I don't know about Wisconsin, but in many states you are required to use a hollow or soft point, so you couldn't use a pure NATO 308. ANother option is to get a Garand from the CMP.
Click to expand...

That's right; here, they don't allow FMJ, and want something that expands. That certainly makes sense, in my book...

Jadecristal
 
Just because a caliber is legal doesn't make it a good choice.

With .223: Use a good soft point bullet designed to expand, not fragment. Get the heaviset you can find.

You might consider a single shot NEF rifle in 308 or 30-06 instead. The Milsurps are neat but not all of them are accurate.
 
I don't hunt, but knowing that a .308 is a decent deer round, and having shot mine for a while, I can suggest a Remington 742. It's a semiauto, thus reducing the "hurt" a little :neener: , and mine came with a nice camo synthetic stock. I got mine used for a mere $265. Already has the base on it to mount a scope.

And it'll outperform my abilities all day long.
 
I understand how tight money can get sometimes, so I'd say the following:

If it came down to a choice between not hunting at all, or hunting with the 5.56? Then I'd say go ahead and hunt with the 5.56. It will do the job, but it won't do it well. I wouldn't let it stop you if that's all you can get, but if you can get something else, both you and the deer would be better off.

Personally? I think the old reliable common choices like the .30-30, .270, .308 or .30-06 (my favorite for deer) are available in such a wide variety of cost-effective platforms that if you look hard enough, you shouldn't have too hard a time finding one that suits your preferences.

And if you need to go really cheap? I'd take a 12-gauge shotgun with slugs (specifically Federal's TruBall Rifled Slugs) over a 5.56 any day of the week. The vast majority of deer killed every year are shot at less than 100 yards, and at those ranges, a slug will outperform the 5.56 by a significant margin.
 
I know of deer killed with the .223 and deer lost with it.

If you must use it, keep the shots short, inside 50 yards if possible. Use a hunting bullet like the 64 grain Winchester mentioned above. Don't take running shots, wait for a broadside, standing shot. That will help minimize the disadvantages of a small, light bullet.

I try and get short range, standing shots with my .250 Savage or .30-06 too. Why trail a deer if you don't have to?
 
Sounds to me as if your mind is made up already. You know the .223 is dubious under real world hunting conditions, and that the .308 is superior. Right tool for the job, and all that. Go with it, brother. Here're are 3 options off the top of my head:

Handi Rifle in .308.
+ It can shoot commercial ammo, which is loaded to higher pressures than milsurp stuff - while it wil easily handle any milsurp fodder you choose to put through it.
+ It is cheap to buy, at around 200$ new, 275$ in synthetic/stainless.
+ It will require you to knuckle down and SHOOT WELL, not a lot.
+ The trigger is excellent:
"Surprisingly, the trigger pull of the Stainless Handi-Rifle reviewed for this article is excellent, considerably better than most contemporary bolt action rifles." - Chuck Hawks
Visit here to learn more - http://www.chuckhawks.com/nef_rifles.htm
+ It is more potent than you need. You'll know it when you drop the hammer the first time. Kaboom!

Savage/Stevens 30/06.
+ Forget the .308 - until Savage makes a short action 110, there is little to recommend a .308 in a LONG action.
+ Another excellent, adjustable, trigger. The Savage product has been ballyhooed forever. It is proven every day in the field. Nuff said.

Mosin-Nagant 38 Carbine. Get one without the bayonet.
+ It is tough as nails and there is little "aesthetic" about it. After all, it was made for the Russian fighting man.
+ It can be temp stripped of some of the wood to lighten it, but it is solid enough to not be a shoulder slammer.
+ Scope mounts are available and it's accurate enough to take advantage. 200 yds. is do-able with some practice (farther and you need to improve your hunting, not your rifle). Consider mounting the optics "Scout Rifle" fashion. Here's how one guy did it:

http://home.earthlink.net/~hwsportsman/CheapScout.html

+ The cartridge, 7.62 x 54R, has ballistic parity with the 7.62 Nato and is milsurp cheap for practice.
+ Value-priced hunting grade ammo is increasingly available for it. How does 180 gr SP @ 2600 fps sound to you? Brother, hit the the shoulder quarter, deer 'gonna fall down. Here's just one link; it's availble elsewhere if you wanna "shop":

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/defenseh_cgb.htm

+ It has the "old-school military cool" factor going for it. After all, every squad of SHTF shooters needs a sniper, right?
+ Trigger is so-so. It can be made better - it can be used as is with practice. Add a trigger stop.
+ BEST OF ALL: The rifle is dirt cheap at around $100.
 
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2.) If the answer to (1) is "no," what rifle should I look at? Please note that things such as "aesthetic value" matters little, while things like "doesn't hurt" and "easy to clean" do matter. I think I'd prefer a synthetic stock. A NATO or military round is a must in my book, unless someone gives me a good reason to look at something other than .30-06 or .308. Then again, with this being more of a "sporting" (how I HATE that word) rifle, maybe I wouldn't be able to use the purely NATO version of .308 anyway?
Click to expand...

You're just crying for a a Savage/Stevens 200 or a Mossberg 100ATR in .270 Winchester. It's a pretty common caliber, easy to find in variety in most areas I've been to, won't kick too badly and has a reputation for good accuracy. Both of the mentioned rifles can be outfitted with decent glass and still keep your bill under $400, under 350 possibly if you sacrifice on the glass (not a good trade IMO, but it's your call).

While I love my AR-15 and can shoot it well (plus it is wicked accurate), I will almost always take something heavier deer hunting. A nice .44 Magnum levergun is my personal minimum.

Of course now we'll start a debate about how the "pistol caliber" is less powerful than a mild rifle round like the .223. Maybe the .223 guys should stand 20 feet from a moose and tell me their rifle is still "powerful enough" for the job! :neener:
 
I'm not a tacticool kinda guy and prefer bolt or lever guns for hunting (it's called accuracy, the one shot clean kill). If you like tacticool, why not one of them fancy sniper rifles Savage, Remington, and others sell in .308 winchester (for me it's .308 winchester, not NATO anything)? Every good weekend range warrior needs a sniper rifle, right? :D Or, you could get a Barrett. Lord knows, the caliber is enough.:eek:

A match grade M14 would probably be fine, heavy, bulky, but fine. I prefer a ligher, more compact gun than anything military when I'm afield, but I'm an old man and would rather tote something light and accurate. And, I'm not really happy with worse than 1 MOA. I know that's a little picky for hunting accuracy, so call it a personality flaw. I hunt open areas out west where long shots are possible. If you're just hunting the woods out to 100 yards, I reckon accuracy ain't that big a deal. I just like to know my rifles will shoot 1 MOA for some reason, though, even if it's in the woods.

I really only hunt with one rifle, now, a M7 Remington stainless .308. I have a 7 mag, an old .257 Roberts in the safe that rarely see light of day anymore. That .257 is a 3/4 MOA gun and the big 7 is a 1 MOA gun. I also have a sporterized SKS that's fun at the range. I've shot one deer with it in the woods. Was less than impressed when I had to track that animal with a good, solid lung shot, but I did find it. It had a nice exit wound, good expansion (hand loads) and left a lot of blood. Shot was about 80 yards.

I'd say stick with .308 or .30-06 for whatever you get for a hunting rifle. That way, you can pretty much go after anything in the lower 48 if you get the chance, just have to use the proper load/bullet. With modern controlled expansion bullets now days (I love Barnes bullets), the .308 can be as effective on game as the 06 and it comes in more compact short action bolt rifles. It's also a very accurate round. I love .308 caliber.
 
223

One of the wives in our deer camp uses a bolt action M77 Ruger in 223 the last three years. She's made one shot kills every year and we've not had to track them. She is by far a better shot than most men in our camp. Last Christmas she got a M77 in 243 that I suspect will put an end to her 223 days of hunting. She wanted a bigger gun. The 223 is an "alright" cartridge for deer but if you botch the shot, that little bitty whole does not make for a good blood trail.
 
Deer are not bulletproof or armor plated - .22 rimfires have put down quite a few.

While a .223 may not be an ideal choice, it will certainly do the job if placed right . . . just like a handgun round or the embellished pointy sticks used by bowhunters.

I'd use a heavy (60+ grain) softpoint and be REAL careful about placing my shots. And if I saw a deer, I'd be bringing home the venison.
 
What OldSchooler said; ditto.

Spring for a Rossi ($180) or Handi-Rifle ($220), or Stephens 200 ($270), or Mossberg 100ATR ($245), in .243 or bigger... .308, .270, .30-06, whatever floats your boat.

Or grab a milsurp - a K31 Swiss, or Mosin-Nagant of some flavor, or Mauser of some flavor, or Enfield, or SKS. Use soft point commercial hunting ammo, such as the 154 wolf or 150 corbon for the SKS (7.62x39mm).

Voila, you're a well-equipped deer hunter.

But, if you're intent on using a .223, see also this concurrent discussion:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=210940
 
USE WHAT YOU GOT

In my life time I have used 4 different calibers to shoot deer. I shot my first three with a .44 mag after that I got one with a .22 LR, two with a 30-30, and the last ten or so with a .223. Now I will be the first to admit that .44 mag is a pretty hefty round, but the rest of the guns I have used would be looked at as substandard in most peoples minds. In fact many people mouths drop open when I tell them my main deer rifle is a Mini 14. I have never had a deer I couldn't find, and all of the deer I have shot with these smaller caliber guns seemed to die quickly.

One thing to say in all of this is I can't remember any deer that I have shot with my .223 that was over 75 yards away. Here in Northern WI the woods are thick, and fields tend to be small. That keeps allot of our shots to shorter distances. If I were you I would use your M4 and shoot some 75 gr HP ammo that is comercially available. If that is the only gun you have you might as well get some use out of it.
 
I say, use the .223 without apology.

I've taken 3 deer with .224 caliber centerfires; 2 with a .22-250 and one with a .222. One with the .22-250 was a 360 yard shot; in one lung and out the other for a bang flop kill. The one I got with the .222, which is less potent than the .223, angled in from the front of the deer, through a lung and out the side from about 100 yards. That one ran a bit but no further than my last lung shot deer with a .30/06 and the meat damage was minuscule.

My favorite deer bullet is the Speer 70 grain Semi-Spitzer which stabilizes well in my 1:12 twist barrels.

The most important things about deer guns are:

1. Can you place your bullet precisely?
2. Will the effective range be suitable for the intended hunting conditions. I would not consider the .223 a more than maybe 250 yard gun and would be much more comfortable at about 150 yards.
3. The bullet construction is very important. The bullet has to get to vitals. If it is too fast or lightly constructed, it may hit bone, fragment and not do the damage to vital organs that you need for a fast kill. I'd pick penetration over expansion any time.
 
/*Then again, with this being more of a "sporting" (how I HATE that word) rifle*/

I'm interested in hearing the reasoning behind the above.

If all you have is a .22 centerfire, then don't let that keep you home. I wouldn't think of using a .22 centerfire if I had something more suitable, but if that's all I had, I wouldn't hesitate using it.

I also caution people on drawing conclusions on just three or four examples about what constitutes a good deer cartridge. That's not a big enough sample. I know several people who have quietly switched from their .22-250, .22 CHeetah and .223 after having proclaimed their rifles equal to Thor's hammer based on the first half dozen deer that went down, only to change their minds after the second or third blood trail that peters out. Was it the cartridge or the shot, or both? Can't say, but the mystery nagged them enough to grab a bigger rifle from then on.

However, don't let opinion override personal firsthand experience. Keep using whatever until you have a reason to switch...
 
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