Defective firearms/optics; unreasonable to be compensated for ammo costs?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Trey Veston, Mar 31, 2021.

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  1. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    Bought a new Vortex Venom red dot for my Henry Big Boy X in .45 Colt. I replaced a Burris Fastfire III that had been perfect, but put it on a Glock G19 MOS and thought the Venom would be a great replacement with it's larger field of view.

    Took it to the range today and it cost me 20 rounds of ammo to confirm that the POI was shifting due to internal failure of the sight.

    Now, I reload. And I cast my own bullets, so the ammo cost was negligible to me, and any sunny day at the range after a long winter is a good day.

    But, if I didn't reload, and had to buy that ammo online, it would cost me $3 per round, before shipping.

    So, in addition to the $250 sight being defective, it would cost me another $60+ to find out it is defective.

    I would imagine that in today's climate of ridiculous ammo costs and low availability, that those that don't reload face a not insignificant cost in ammo if a firearm, or optic, is defective.

    Cabela's made a big deal out of sending me the shipping label to return it, for free. I jokingly asked if they would also refund me for the ammo I wasted on the defective product, seeing how that was over $60 worth of ammo. The rep stammered and said that was not their policy.

    But should it? Or should the consumer be on the hook for those expenses?

    Never thought about it before, but thought it was an interesting subject in today's climate.
     
  2. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    Do you ask for a full tank of gas when the cars in the shop.
     
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  3. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    I would not ask for compensation for ammo cost but I would be more pissed off by a defective sight or firearm that costed me ammo. I would be more likely to leave a negative review and/or buy a different brand next time.

    I would bet money that your sight was imported and Vortex has a HUGE profit margin on it. :mad:
     
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  4. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    I drive a Toyota; I don't understand the nature of your question...
     
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  5. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    I have three Toyota products... so if they were all I had I wouldn’t understand the question either... but my 2007 6.0 Ford taught me how to patiently wait for a tow truck large enough for a pickup, toy hauler and the family three times. :fire:

    As for the ammo post, I doubt the gun or accessory makers would reimburse ammo costs... but I do agree that it stinks to spend money to find out something you bought doesn’t work :thumbdown:.

    Stay safe.
     
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  6. ozarkhillbilly

    ozarkhillbilly Member

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    Everyone puts out a lemon once in a while but if they stand behind it, then that's what counts. It's a slippery path from reimbursements for ammo then do they reimburse for time, for gas for the driving to the range and it goes on and on. I would see how quickly they get you a replacement and if it works before I judge a them, give them a chance to make it right. It's how we would want to be treated when we make a mistake, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
     
  7. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Surely the ammo wasn't the only expense involved with getting a crappy scope. Your time is probably valuable as well. I don't know your situation, but this is mine... I figure I am worth $40 an hour on top of everything else, right? Then there is gas and wear and tear on my vehicle to drive to the range which is 50 miles away (100 round trip). So two hours at the range, 2 hours of drive time and I am up to $160. At 50 cents a mile add in another $50. Add in ammo. Add in target costs. Add in range fees. Add on top of that all of the pain and suffering. Think of all the confusion and mental anguish incurred in trying to understand why the scope wasn't working as intended. Pretty soon I will be owning the company that made the crappy scope, right?

    Unfortunately, that is all on you/me. Companies only warranty the product they manufacture/sell. They don't cover all the other costs incurred in trying to use it.
     
  8. Bill Raby

    Bill Raby Member

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    It is sickening that you would even ask that.
     
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  9. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    Wow. Sickening, huh? Good luck with that.
     
  10. Bill Raby

    Bill Raby Member

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    Yes. Sickening. It is the attitude you get from the welfare bunch that think someone owes them money for every little inconvenience in life. Maybe I got it wrong, but that is the impression I got.
     
  11. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    You must simply be oversensitive since I am about as far from the "welfare" bunch as one can get. I understand that in today's culture, where there is so much wrong, that it seems like traditional values and hard work and integrity are foreign and alien ideals. I get it.

    My post was not about getting something from "the man"; it was about how today's reality, where ammo has become so scarce and expensive, that things we used to take for granted, are now a significant expense.

    I saw a post on some gun forum the other day regarding a firearm and a proper break-in period and the manufacturer suggested a minimum of 500 rounds to break in a new $500 pistol.

    In today's reality, that is ridiculous. We are talking about a 100% increase in the cost of a firearm in order to get it to function reliably.

    That same logic applies to my scenario because I "invested" a certain amount of ammo in sighting in and troubleshooting a new optic. The price of the optic was $250. I spent an additional $60 worth of ammo to sight it in and determine it was defective. So now I have to wait another 2-3 weeks for a replacement, then go back to the range, and start over.

    So, someone who received a fully functional sight had to make one range trip, use five rounds of ammo to sight it in (which is what it took to sight in the Fastfire III when I put it back on my Glock), and now has a sighted in and functional firearm.

    I have to repeat the 25-mile round trip, the two hours of my time, and the 20 rounds of ammo, in order to be in the same position as the customer before me.

    Is that a "little inconvenience" as you put it? Depends. For me, it is. I stated in my original post that it was still a great day because I was at the range, it was beautiful out, I had a good time, and I reload and cast my own bullets. So, it was a little inconvenience.

    But for a lot of folks, taking that amount of time away from family, driving that far, and spending an extra $60 on ammo, might be a pretty big deal. My brother is a new dad with two kids at home under 2 years old. His wife works full time as a county prosecutor and he's a Detective. He used to go shooting with me once a month to the range. We haven't gone since his 2nd son was born, 13 months ago. His time is extremely valuable. So even though he has plenty of money, he might not get a couple of hours of range time for months. So getting a defective optic is not a "minor inconvenience" for everyone.

    Something to think about...
     
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  12. BWS

    BWS Member

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    Trey,I think most folks get your point. The glaring problem is,how to quantify the end users.... expected results. And further complicated by,the user may just be a sucky shot?

    Digging a wee bit deeper....

    On a casual basis,your point would seem to have some resonance with QC at the manufacturer. Just sayin,when ammo is "cheap",quality of the product can slide a bit. Is that going to go the other way,now that ammo is the bigger $$ driver? We'd like to at least,"think so".....
     
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  13. Sovblocgunfan

    Sovblocgunfan Member

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    In contract law the thing you are describing is called “consequential loss”. Meaning “I experienced a loss as a consequence of trying to use your faulty product”.

    usually the fine print of whatever paperwork we are given has language that deals with this. Consequential loss is usually not considered when it comes to warranty items. The warranty language for the scope will likely say repair or replacement is the sole remedy and nothing else can be claimed. That is the thing that eliminates con loss from consideration.

    in short, even if the ammo was worth it to claim (it aint), you couldnt claim it anyway due to the user agreement you are working under for the scope. And BTW, ignorance is not an excuse on this one. Using the scope will constitute acceptance of the terms and conditions.

    also, it won’t matter where you purchased it. Consumer products typically have a “pass thru” warranty, which means the reseller passes it thru to you. Now doing the right thing? Throwing in a box of ammo or a gift card just to keep your business? That’s a completely different subject.

    forget the ammo, time, and gas. Cost of doing business.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
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  14. chicharrones

    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    Toyota's are involved in traffic accidents, too.

    Anyway, I don't know of any manufacturer that warranties anything but the product they sell.

    No additional compensation for the pay-per-view fight a bunch of friends couldn't continue watching due to the flat screen TV burning up a circuit board at the host's home. And now they all went to the local sports bar . . . gas, mileage, door fee for PPV, bar bill, bar food, drunk driving home, hit a telephone pole, everyone but the driver is injured . . . yeah, they want compensation from the TV manufacturer. :p
     
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  15. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I think you should. However, I also think if I make an appointment for an MRI at 8:00am and they don’t even start with me until 9:30, it should be free but it’s not...

    When I lived in the city there was a park not far from our house, land donated to the city but our taxes there on after paid for the maintenance and improvements. 30 some years later the city sold the park to developers that put a bunch of apartments on the land.

    I never got my return on the investment, not even a refund on my tax dollars that allowed them to make and keep the profit, all while reducing park areas (“services”) I had paid for.

    For the Toyota folks, ask them for compensation for the mental anguish over the risk to your life they put you in using the Takata air bags for years and see how far that gets you.

    I wonder what we are going to get out of China for #3 on the list of causes of death in the US, last year?
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
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  16. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Then you probably should not have included the part of the story where you tried to get money back for the ammo, huh?
     
  17. Steve S.

    Steve S. Member

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    “Repair or replace the item at their discretion.....” - that is all, nothing more inferred or implied.
     
  18. Pat Riot
    • Contributing Member

    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    I had a problem with a S&W model 60 Pro. It went back to S&W 4 times. The last time I sent it back I told the lady I was speaking with that I wish I had all the money back that I wasted on ammo time and range fees for that gun. She said “If we did that our warranty policies would change pretty dramatically, pretty quick.”
    I said, “Maybe so, but then maybe someone at Smith & Wesson would pull their head out of their (butt) and do some proper QC.”
    She stifled a laugh and changed the subject.
     
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  19. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    Is it outrageous to accept a shipping label? Taking something from the man?

    I don't think it would be any more inappropriate for the retailer who provided you with a defective product to offer a voucher for a box of ammo. On the other hand I've witnessed greedy entitlement babies so unscrupulous that they accepted a free box of ammo just for purchasing a firearm, so maybe the world is going to hell in a handbasket.
     
  20. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    It seems you you had a great day with a little inconvenience with associated risks and your brother doesn't because the associated risk isn't worth the loss of time.

    I don't see a real problem but I do understand the frustration.

    No, I don't think they should reimburse the ammo.

    While I would have also probably shot 50 rounds or so to be sure, the next customer may only shoot the 5-10 rounds you mentioned to come to thier conclusion it was bad.

    Where exactly is the line, I don't know.

    But at some point, our own personal responsibility for the risk vs reward choices we make has to come into play. You made your choice and had a great day still. Your brother makes his choice and I presume has great times with the kids.
     
  21. chicharrones

    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    If a seller offers ammo with a gun purchase to sweeten the deal, count me in. I've been on the receiving end of that a couple times.
     
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  22. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    In countries where guns and ammo are more expensive and difficult to acquire, I notice that very little expense is spared on firearms and accessories.

    I tend to think this is because the end users in those countries do not want to spend extraneous time and money on these items and have purchased them based on a reputation of doing things right the first time every time.

    So not a company like, say, Ruger. Good customer service true but there is a problem when customer service has to be used too often.
     
  23. Mal H

    Mal H Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, this started out sort-of ok, but it went downhill out of the gate and that set the tone for a downhill slalom.

    Closed.
     
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