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Defense of a domestic animal

Discussion in 'Legal' started by TapNRack, Apr 25, 2016.

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  1. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    You cannot use deadly force in defense of property. You can use deadly force in defense of your life.

    If someone is unlawfully on your property, and harming your property, you can go out and tell him to stop. If he attacks you, you can defend yourself.
     
  2. guyfromohio

    guyfromohio Member

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    Now that you have posed this question and established a bias towards a particular race/national origin, God help you if you actually need to defend yourself or your pets as described in the op. A good prosecuter would use every bit of that to establish motive.
     
  3. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Posted by Vern Humphrey:
    That is true, provided that you were not the instigator, and provided that you had no choice other than deadly force.

    Yes, but there are risks involved, and little in the way of upside.

    The problem becomes on of piecing together incomplete evidence..

    And there are the issues of necessity and of who initiated the confrontation. People have served time for displaying firearms in the presence of trespassers.

    No only that, but a superior court judge in on state has opined that, should someone pull a gun on a trespasser, the trespasser might well be justified in using deadly force in self defense.

    My biggest concern would be the guy I did not see.
     
  4. jrmiddleton425

    jrmiddleton425 Member

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    Something from my own personal experience...I knew a guy who got into a domestic dispute with his girlfriend.

    It escalated to the point she said she would kill his dog. He picked up a gun and shot her.

    The court stipulated to all of this because he admitted it.

    She's dead. He went to prison for 25 years to life.

    Unless the law accords a SPECIFIC dog special status, it is an item of property.

    It's harsh, but it is what it is. I don't want to generalize too much, but if you pick up a firearm and pull the trigger, the people who run the judicial system can make you answer for your actions, if they are so inclined.
     
  5. 230RN
    • Contributing Member

    230RN ^ The avatar says it all.

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    TapNRack remarked (in part, Post 8),

    Agreed, but often that bleeds over the border of what's acceptable in this subforum: what the law is.

    Terry, 230RN
     
  6. TimSr

    TimSr Member

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    Risk? Yes. Little upside? No

    Has resulted in a suspect aborting his illegal and fleeing every time I've tried it.
     
  7. DHolland

    DHolland Member

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    In some States (Texas) you can use deadly force at night to protect property (that would also include your pets as property). It has been done multiple times for multiple reasons.
     
  8. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    That's been my experience, too. I have ordered many a trespasser off my farm.
     
  9. hdwhit

    hdwhit Member

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    Of course the corollary question to the original post is at what point do you have to intervene to call off your dogs who are attacking the trespasser?
     
  10. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    A case was reported last week where a 75-year-old man in Texas saw a guy cut through his fence and hitch up his John Deere to his (the BG's) car in order to steal it, so he went outside and stopped him by shooting at him (or the car, not clear), this was during the daytime (the man was interviewed and cut the interview short saying that BG had interrupted his breakfast and he wanted to go back inside and finish it), and the news report said he would not be prosecuted because he was protecting his property. I remembered reading here several times that even in Texas it's only legal to shoot a thief at night, as you say above, so I'm wondering about this guy not getting prosecuted.

    ???
     
  11. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Strongly agree about mentally running scenarios. I made a whole list of possible scenarios that could happen in my house and then practiced for them with snapcaps, the idea being if I already have a plan what to do and know I can execute it I'll have a much better chance than if I would have to figure it out on the spot.
     
  12. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    Since these signs
    220px-Use_of_Deadly_Force_Authorized_(5730792058).jpg

    are located at every single military installation I've ever been to, it may lend some insight into your question. As for the actual soldier, sailor airman or Marine shooting an intruder/ trespasser, that falls to the Rules of Engagement.
     
  13. BLB68

    BLB68 Member

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    It would be hard to say without all of the details of the case. However, it's ultimately up to a human to decide whether to prosecute, regardless of what the letter of the law says. It's possible that the DA simply decided not to prosecute.
     
  14. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    The story is reported at http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...etting-stolen-during-breakfast-i-stopped-him/, where there is an embedded video report from local television saying no charges were filed. There is also a much shorter version of the story at http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Elderly-man-shoots-alleged-trailer-thief-7252766.php, which also states no charges have been filed. BG already had a felony warrant for auto theft.
     
  15. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    We are sliding off topic here, but there is an important point to be made in regards to this case. It doesn't matter if the man was arrested. It doesn't matter if the police have yet to file charges. A man was shot so the case is going to a Grand Jury which will ultimately decide if this man is going to be charged. The police may sympathize with him and not take him to jail but that is far from the end of the story.
     
  16. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    A dumb cluck of the first order.

    Went outside, not knowing who might be out there or where.

    Started shooting at a thief, in the daytime.

    Made public comments that would surely weaken any claim of necessary self defense: “The man was trying to steal my property, and I stopped him,....”.

    Lucky. Was not ambushed or otherwise attacked.

    Still subject to possible charges, and will remain so until he is tried and acquitted, or a case is dismissed with prejudice, or the statute of limitations runs out, or he is pardoned, or he dies, whichever happens first.
     
  17. blarby

    blarby Member

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    If the intruder is in a direct physical confrontation with your two dogs, unarmed....

    I'd say that's a great time for the fire extinguisher sized pepperspray, or the OC paintballs, if you had em.

    If I was a juror, you'd have a hard time convincing me an unarmed combatant, engaged with not one, but two dogs, was somehow a pressing lethal threat to your person.

    Unfortunately, animals are still considered property. Until that life equates to more than your lawnmower, legally, you'd best have a non-lethal option handy if this event is likely to occur again.
     
  18. BSA1

    BSA1 member

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    Actually this is the second thing you should do.

    The first is to put up NO TRESPASSING signs and locks on the gates.

    Then call the police and file a police report.

    I live in the country and last winter I found boot tracks in the snow around my garage. I called the Sheriff Office and filed a report. Rural thefts are common and I want to start building documentation of the problem.

    I do need to install some wireless cameras around my outbuildings. They have programs now that allow you to view your cameras from a remote location such as work. Just another honey-do project waiting to be done.
     
  19. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    get bigger dogs???



    As for using examples from TX?

    I wouldnt advise it, as TX has pretty unique laws as it pertains to protection of property.
     
  20. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Let me just add this reminder, and then we need to get back on topic.

    Let's be careful about drawing too many conclusions from media reports, especially about legal points. Details which could affect the legal analysis of an incident often get left out of media reports because a reporter or editor doesn't think they help tell the story.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.
     
  21. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    In effort to promote peace and tranquility......I raise this question;

    Isn't this "asked and answered"?

    I posted the statue in post #4 and it seems to have been subsequently explained.

    I'm not one that wants threads in the legal section to get shut down prematurely; quite the opposite.

    But I don't want this turning into nitpicking about, supposedly, 'missing commas' in effort to make false contentions.
     
  22. Snyper

    Snyper Member

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    If you're worried such a scenario may recur, I'd suggest you raise your fence a few feet, and add some hot wires.
     
  23. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Does having hot wires in your fence make you liable if a person or animal is hurt or killed as a result of touching them?
     
  24. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe yes, maybe no. In any event, liability arising from electric fences, barbed wire, or booby traps are off-topic for this thread, and this forum.
     
  25. ericuda

    ericuda Member

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    As long as the hot wire was a commonly available fence charger available at any farm store I would think the liability would be okay. Not a lawyer but electrified fences are common around my area. Yes they will shock and alarm you.
     
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