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Defensive Ammunition 101

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Dave McCracken, Aug 14, 2011.

  1. Maple_City_Woodsman

    Maple_City_Woodsman Member

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    I have no desire to argue semantics.

    My thanks to those of you who managed to support the arguments you made while answering my questions, especially Lee Lapin who has been most helpful.

    I did not intend to step on toes, but it has happened anyway. My apologies to those who got their feelings hurt. I'm bowing out of this discussion, to keep it 'High Road'.
     
  2. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Winchester PDX-1 .410 shells ... .410 derringer

    If it holds any kind of pattern with all the stuff the Winchester shell is loaded with (shot plus "defense discs"), it should probably do about as well as anything else. I'd guess you only have about 1/2" to 1" of barrel in front of the shotgun shell in a derringer, and that's not going to help matters much with either velocity or patterning. I've never shot one to pattern with anything at all, but it's my guess the short barrel will prove to be your biggest disadvantage with that particular gun. But only experimentation can answer those questions - shoot various loads and test both penetration and patterning to see what you can expect out of it.

    hth,

    lpl
     
  3. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    I have no sympathy for thugs who rob, (delted a word for forcible, non-consensual sexual relations), maim, kill, etc, and if in stopping them I kill them, so be it. They put themselves in harms way.

    The idea is to stop the attack. Sometimes killing is required to do so. It is completely up to the thug who is committing the crime. If when they are told to freeze, drop any weapon, and lay face down, they choose to do so, their lives are not in jeopardy. If instead they choose to attack, they take their health and well being into their own hands.

    What reason do I need to believe that? It speaks for its self. If you believe differently, OK.

    If you truly believe what you say, debate it, don't bow out. AC
     
  4. lobo9er

    lobo9er Member

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    its not that I disagree with you its just that 00 buck gets discussed alot here and this thread isnt bringing anything new to the table other than another conversation about 00 buck and possible a scenerio.
     
  5. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Member

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    Lee, this is tremendously good advice. Do you mind if I save your post for future reference?
     
  6. Apple a Day

    Apple a Day Member

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    If you're asking about a derringer then I think that's a whole different animal (as compared to an 18"+ bbl longarm).
    I won't attempt to put words om MB's mouth but I believe he's addressing the larger guns.
    If I'm in a self defense situation I'm sticking with A)simple and B)most effective. Simple 00 fits both those criteria. Woodsman, I understand what you are saying but I agree with MB's point:
    I was recently trying out some different rounds and remarked the huge difference in spread between some 00 and some birdshot at the same range from the same barrel.
    I'm no expert and I'm not sure how comfortable I am trying to work with a less-than-most-effective tool especially when my life is at stake. It's not that I want to kill anyone, it's just that I really, really, really don't want to get killed myself. I think I can get that idea across to a jury.
    Everybody has their own opinions/methods. Good luck whichever you choose. Stay safe.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  7. bushmaster1313

    bushmaster1313 Member

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    Do the pellets in 8 pellet LE reduced recoil 00 travel about as fast as the full power 9 pellet 00?
     
  8. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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  9. Jesse 8

    Jesse 8 Member

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    What are opinions on #1 buck? I think 12-15 pellets of .30 caliber would be quite convincing and possibly penetrate dry wall slightly less than straight 00 buck
     
  10. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    On paper, 1 looks very good. But, some of us who have been doing this for a long time have yet to find a load of 1 buck that patterns tightly without flyers.

    Inside, that may not be a problem due to proximity. But, we can never be completely sure we will not need a shotgun outside during crisis points.

    In the scenarios we may have to deal with, collateral damage is unacceptable.
     
  11. bratch

    bratch Member

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    Federal is/has came out with a FliteControl #1B LE132-1B. DocGKR has tested it and is getting one hole groups at 7 yards. I'll be really interested to get my hands on some when I see it in the wild.
     
  12. Strykervet

    Strykervet member

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    The Winchester LE reduced recoil is much slower, but I think it has 9 pellets. Around 1090fps? The Hornady TAP FPD (my favorite) has 8 pellets and chugs along at about 1600fps. Oh yeah! I'll trade that one pellet in exchange for the rest going 500fps. faster. More recoil than the Winchester, but much less than Federal magnums.

    Oh yeah, the Hornady also patterns better than anything else I've tried. Very tight, all of them go evenly in a saucer or desert plate at close to moderate range. The wad is the secret. I think Federal uses something similar. With proper shot placement, this is devastating. The wost patterns I've seen come from Fiocchi and other cheaper loads that use cardboard wads. Uneven, erratic, and wide. Some people like this though?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2011
  13. Strykervet

    Strykervet member

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    #1 buck is very good. Just between #4 and 00... Some think 00 is overkill and some think #4 is underkill, so #1 should be just right. Ayoob I think is a big proponent of #1. I don't use it because of availability, but I think he may just be right. I like all three, plus 000, my favorite. I just wish it came in different flavors like the 00 does. A low recoil 3" would be awesome.

    Seals used #4 to break ambushes in Vietnam with full auto shotguns. 200+ pellets in the air in a second or two. The Winchester XX load, 3" mag, has 41 or 42 pellets! It also has the most recoil of any shotgun shell I've fired since I was 8.
     
  14. Strykervet

    Strykervet member

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    I really like buck and ball, the concept anyway. But there isn't a really well designed one out there. There is the Centurion, one ball and six buck (00? I think there are ones with #4 and #1 too). Not the best pattern. Then there is the Winchester buck and slug. Very promising looking, it has a rifled slug UNDER three 00 buck. It patterns like you'd expect: one slug in the middle with a triad of buck around the slug. The catch? Probably because the slug is under the buck, it tends to spread very rapidly. You will have a flier in distances over a few yards. The slug also gets a little deformed through firing. But a little over 1000fps, this load would be a fight ender. I really would like to see one done with the buck under the slug and engineered to pattern tight.
     
  15. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    In a self defense / home defense scenario, there is a subtle but critical difference between "stop the attack" and the end game I believe is the right one: "neutralize the aggressor."

    "Stop the attack," which can be accomplished in many ways including simply scaring the bad guy away, and you might do nothing more than set the attacker on your less well protected neighbor. "Neutralize the aggressor" means render him unable to continue his agressive activity. Not unwilling, not somewhere else. Unable. That is the desired outcome of the encounter.

    To the original question, as I recall it, that's 00 buck in as large a dose as it takes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2011
  16. worldtraveler119

    worldtraveler119 Member

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    Would one expect to have penetration problems using #1 if the attacker was wearing a lot of clothing or light jacket/hoodie?
     
  17. Pfletch83

    Pfletch83 member

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    I'm thinking about '0000' buck loaded in a 3-inch shell for defenisive use.

    I know there is a company that offers a three pellet load but I wonder if four can be placed inside the 3-inch shell.

    Could make the .410 even better for SD use and should be able to put a lot of wallop on four legged ner do wells.
     
  18. farscott

    farscott Member

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    My thought is that part of choosing the proper ammo for an HD shotgun is considering what happens to those pellets that miss the target. In other words, the choice for a rural homeowner who knows his "misses" are going to hit nothing but his own brick home may be different from the urban apartment dweller with neighbors (much) less than a foot of drywall away. When I am in urban homes, I choose #4 buck due to its lesser penetration. At my rural home, I choose #00 or #01 buck.
     
  19. Strykervet

    Strykervet member

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    Dixie Tri-Ball? That is way overkill. Anything over 00 will almost certainly over penetrate. 000 is good if you don't mind a mess and some patch work. 00, #1, and #4 are probably the best 12ga. defense loads, they are certainly the most popular.

    I also seem to recall that the tri-ball is designed to punch one deep hole. They almost go in a line. They don't deform much either. A slug would probably do the same thing a tri-ball would at defensive distances.

    I can't imagine anyone going with anything short of the Hornady TAP FPD 00. That stuff is just amazing. Saucer size groups, 8 holes, high velocity, reduced recoil. All in one package. Wow.
     
  20. RhinoDefense

    RhinoDefense Member

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    20ga can use #1 buckshot as I load a lot of it in the 20ga.

    #1 buckshot is recommended over all other shot sizes by the IWBA, even 00 buck.
     
  21. SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE

    SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE Member

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    has anyone patterned their guns?

    I keep my shotgun loaded with #4 buck for a couple reasons . 1st it patterned better in my gun than the 0 and 00 buck at ranges from 7 to 25 yards . 2nd I have seen hogs shot broadside with #4 from 25 yards with several pellets passing through . Also have any of you ever fired shot through a rifled shotgun barrel ? If you really want spread that is what you use ! Unfortunatly the effective range is radically reduced ! Pattern your guns at the intended distances ,then check at your estimated maximum range ! Kevin
     
  22. RET50

    RET50 Member

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    a
    Amen to that! I had 29 years "on the job" and can well remember the calming effect that sound made by racking the slide on one of those 870 Wingmasters had on folks standing around with bad intentions on their mind.
     
  23. RET50

    RET50 Member

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    Kevin, There's a guy named Vang that does a heck of a business boring and reshaping the bore to internally choke 12 gauge barrels. They shoot unbelievably tight shot groups with buckshot even out at 25 yards. He has a website under his name and does a lot of work for police agencies. When I looked into it, you send him your shotgun barrel and turn over time was about a week. I don't remember his exact prices other than to say it was probably around $200 or slightly less.
     
  24. beeb173

    beeb173 Member

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    I'm in favor of bird shot unless you live on a farm. In close quarters bird shot equals massive blood loss and maximum wound area.
     
  25. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    Stopping the attack for me means, if, the threat is such I have no time to offer them an opportunity to surrender, I am going to take a shot that is amied at center mass using the shotgun or pistol most available, and loaded with ammunition that is certain to do it's job, even if it should result in the death of an armed criminal.

    But I also live in a state that puts the burden of proof on LE, not the potential victim. Prior to our changes in SD laws in my state, if was an iffy situation in which LE did put the burden of proof upon the victim. Stand your ground comes to mind, and castle doctrin. I am by no means an expert, but since the changes have been made to our SD laws in my state, I have inquired, and been fully advised by an attorney that represents both the state and defense entities regarding where we stand as potential victims and lethal force. Now with these changes in place, it is not even necessary that a threat be armed with any weapon, but that if they refuse to back off or other wise retreat we are within our legal right to utilize lethal deadly force. Expert legal advice trumps a general opinion that may likely be based on old SD laws, or those of a less conservative entity. Bottom line, when my life, or that of a loved one is in danger of being physically harmed, I am not going to have any consideration for the degree of physical damage my firearm or ammunition may inflict, other than to say it will be of such degree to stop the threat with confidence.
    GS
     

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