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Defensive Ammunition 101

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Dave McCracken, Aug 14, 2011.

  1. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    1-3/4" long

    Make sure they will function reliably in your shotgun before you use them 'for serious'...
     
  2. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    ABSOLUTELY!
    They did great in the Mossberg 500, except last shell OUT twisted...
    Made the first one IN a full sized, and ALL cycled perfectly! Even during
    Live Fire! Cycling them out w/o firing showed the flaw. It's All Good!
     
  3. ericp1

    ericp1 Member

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    The instructor who sold me the shotgun advised #4 buck. When I went to favorite local gun store, they advised #4 buck. CCW instructor advised #4 buck.
    Is anyone surprised that my Mossberg 500 has 6 rounds #4 buck?
     
  4. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Where shotguns are concerned, there are no stone tablets writ by the finger of God and brought down from the mountain by Moses.

    I don't care who told you what, where, how many times.

    What I do care about is how much YOU have experimented/demonstrated/proven/patterned/experienced/trained/practiced with YOUR shotgun and YOUR finger on the trigger.

    THAT is worth talking about. Everything else is pretty much hearsay.

    A pile of hulls that you have fired is not hearsay...
     
  5. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    Very Nice, Fred Fuller... Very Nice!
     
  6. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Pretty much the sort of thing Dave McC said for years here... it isn't just me :D
     
  7. mr.trooper

    mr.trooper Member

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    re-reading the OP and this thread.

    I've got to say, in my admittedly limited experience, "disrupting the central nervous system" is certainly not "normally required to stop the threat".

    Most 'hardened' killers, rapists, and mental wackos give up the second someone gets smoked - even in a group. The only consistent exception to this is when the criminal is high with some kind of drug, or very drunk.

    Criminals understand force. Many of them ONLY understand force. When someone is willing to level a weapon at them and pull the trigger, 99% of the time they want no more part of whatever is going down - be the projectile rubber slugs, blocks of wood, or lumps of lead. Tacti-cool "CNS disruption" not normally required.
     
  8. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    The only consistent exception to this is when the criminal is high with some kind of drug, or very drunk.

    Or living in Miami, perhaps? Might be something about that subtropical air...

    A perception that many have held the intervening years is that the eight FBI agents' marksmanship was gravely lacking. Not so, argues Dr. Anderson, and presents a persuasive brief that a number of FBI hits were good ones; they just happened to run up against two highly trained (military police, 101st Airborne and Rangers), well-practiced (approximately 750-1,500 rounds per week which they had purchased or robbed from several unfortunate civilians plinking in the Everglades), and extremely focussed individuals in Platt and Matix. The FBI fired a verified 70 rounds (possibly as many as 77 or 78) and delivered 18 wounds to the bad guys, firing at extremely hostile targets obscured by gunsmoke, considerable amounts of dust and debris from the crashing, careening cars, and the deep shadows of the trees beneath which their vehicle came to rest.

    Among those wounds, McNeill hit Matix with that head shot plus a neck/chest shot early on in the fight; Dove delivered that difficult hit as Platt was wriggling from the passenger window of the Monte Carlo, as well as two others; Risner (from 30 yards!) also made a lethal chest wound on Platt in mid-fight; and Mireles, after his shotgun blast had delayed Platt with four 00 foot wounds, had one-handedly put three rounds into Matix's head and two into Platt (one central nervous system, one scalp) all while himself gravely wounded.

    An adversary gets hit square in the head with a 158-grain +P, and he isn't stopped, you are having a bad day! McNeill, Mireles and Hanlon had bad days… only Grogan and Dove had worse ones. In light of this information, perhaps John Hall's "ammo failure" assessment has some merit… but then as a war veteran chum with more than three dozen confirmed kills continually asserts, "the more I see of this stuff, the more I'm convinced that nothing hand-held is absolutely reliable."

    This is one reason why Dr. Anderson undertook such a time-consuming labor of love, as he related in an interview with the author. "I've been fortunate in life," he avers simply and with characteristic modesty. "And the law enforcement community has taken good care of me, witness that I am still alive after a number of death threats I have received." (Bio chemists involved in genetic engineering are viewed with considerable alarm in many fundamentalist sectors.)

    So, long fascinated with the "nuts 'n' bolts" of the Miami Massacre, Dr. Anderson set about to answer some lingering questions in his and the minds of many who have studied that bloody suburban firefight.

    Through interviews with the six surviving Agents, Sgt. Rivers and P.O. Martin Heckman of the Metro-Dade P.D., civilian witness to the firefight Sidney Martin, and the post mortem reports, photographs, x-rays, slides, notes and ancillary materials provided by Dr. Jay Barnhart, the Metro-Dade County Medical Examiner who actually responded to the crime scene between 120th and 124th Streets, and subsequently performed the autopsies, Dr. Anderson uncovers some previously obscured "truths" about that bloody Friday morning, all of which are documented and substantiated in his fully detailed volume.

    Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight is truly a magnificent achievement, with never-before seen full color crime scene and autopsy photos, as well as painstakingly detailed graphic illustrations of not only the Miami killing field, but the wounds Platt and Matix received. At the risk of sounding like a certain writer who opined that the Colt's All-America 2000 "instantly made the 1911 design obsolete," it is my view and others with whom I have consulted, that Dr. Anderson's oeuvre has immediately taken its position as the standard text in this benignly neglected genre.

    Certainly it is an indispensable adjunct of every wound ballistics student's bookshelf, or that of those interested in gun fights, and the volume is finally available to the general public.

    What Dr. Anderson's extraordinary artifact shows in graphic and detailed color, is that on 11 April 1986 there were three huge pairs of balls on Miami's Southwest 82nd Avenue… fortunately for the good guys, the biggest set belonged to Ed Mireles and with the aid of some solid hits from Gordon McNeill, Ron Risner and Jerry Dove, the good guys won, but at a terrible expense of life.


    -- http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86b.html
     
  9. redstategunnut

    redstategunnut Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I vote 00BUCK and 1 ounce slugs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  10. hwmoore

    hwmoore Member

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    "the more I see of this stuff, the more I'm convinced that nothing hand-held is absolutely reliable." Yep I agree Phineas P. Gage took a 1 1/4 tamping bar through is head exiting out the top walked upright with little assistance to a cart to get treatment and lived for 12 more years
     
  11. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    I carried and used a standard 12 riot gun for many years down here in paradise (and was working the day the "Miami shootout" occurred -fortunately not there but in the north end of Dade county..). I retired out in 1995 having only fired one round on the street where it counted. I relied on my shotgun whenever there was even the possibility of an armed confrontation and took some ribbing about it from my officers. The one time it was needed all nine 00buck pellets went into the chest cavity and ended the matter on impact... All I ever used was issued 23/4 00buck or slug rounds and that's what I used on that one occasion.

    As an old "country boy" with a short tour in Vietnam before going into law enforcement I always understood that the human animal is so wildly variable that there are a few walking around that you might actually have to out-run AFTER you've made a killing shot... Anyone who believes otherwise should pray they never find out the hard way...

    As noted above, know your weapon, practice to become competent, and pray you never need it.
     
  12. chuwee81

    chuwee81 Member

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    Hi folks, just watched penetration tests on youtube and agree that 00 buck would do the job. Thanks for sharing that leymaymiami, but i do have concern of over-penetration. In your case, how far was the distance and was there any pellets that went through? I am seriously doubting stocking up my tubes with 00 bucks now not from UNDER-performing but Over-performing.
     
  13. nathan

    nathan Member

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    Shoot to stop the threat. Shoot and shoot until it stops. Aim for the chest and head using slugs!
     
  14. armsmaster270

    armsmaster270 Member

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    As I used to tell my students, Shoot to stop the aggression. The best way to do that is center of mass/heart area, that way if you somehow miss you still may get a piece of him. If he dies that is irrelevant.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. IDriveB5

    IDriveB5 Member

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    Yep, good old BA/UU/R :)
     
  16. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Dave probably spilled more shot at the reloading bench than I've fired in my life - that's what made his contributions here so valuable. I still miss him every day I stop by here...
     
  17. ElPasoWrangler

    ElPasoWrangler Member

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    In over fifty years of shooting and killing game I still remember that first rabbit and how I felt watching the twitching body as I realized what I had done. I hunted to eat or to protect property and life.

    No sane man wishes to have to kill another but sane men do accept that at times it may be the result of their actions. It is a grave responsibility.

    I remember being told that a man armed with a drawn knife and within 20 feet could cover the distance in less than 2 seconds. Can you draw and fire in less than 2 seconds? Most gun owners can't even decide to fire in 2 seconds. Train your muzzle on the threat and at the first hostile act move to save yourself. That is what this is all about, self preservation. Most people have no idea what incoming gunfire sounds like. I do and I don't like it.

    Most injuries to border patrol officers is from rocks. Rocks are considered deadly force and should be defended against as appropriate. Do you think the person coming into your house will be armed with just a rock?

    Like the quote from Patton in the movie, "It is not your place to die for your country, it is to let that other poor sob die for his." He knew what he spoke of as he had ended the life of a Mexican Villista charging him on horseback with a shot from his colt peacemaker.

    Feel bad about it later but be alive to have feelings.
     
  18. Forley

    Forley Member

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    Same, loaded up with #4 buck, it'll do the job, especially at the distances involved inside the house, average distance would be 5-7 yards, with a maximum of 20. On the shell carrier on the buttstock I have 3 00 buck and 2 slugs, mostly for wildlife since I live in the country, though that shotgun wouldn't be my first choice for outdoors work. I'd be far more likely to have my .357 on me, or be grabbing the rifle. http://www.brassfetcher.com/12 gauge number four buckshot.pdf

    I'd love to get my hands on some 15 pellet #1 buck though. I have some but it's a 3" 24 pellet magnum load, recoil is stout.
     
  19. NYShooter

    NYShooter Member

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    Yes, me. #4 is "marginal" http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
     
  20. spottedpony

    spottedpony Member

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    No intention of hijacking this thread, though here's some food for thought on the matter in general. (Don't shoot the messenger here, these are simply thoughts from a discussion)

    Having years of law enforcement in my past, as well as a family member who before retirement, served as an assistant DA, we've discussed, hypotheticly, some of the scenerios posed here.

    His concensus is that, (based on) individual responses here, as well as some posted photos, He would more than likely pursue criminal charges against the home defender, even though, they did in fact believe they were defending life and property.

    The reason being, there was obviously premeditation about self defense, ammunition used with the intent of inflicting the most damage or death, as well as the design of a "specialty" weapon for this exact purpose.
    As he puts it, there is a distinct difference between protecting ones home with grandpa's old (shotgun of choice) should a break in occur, the planning and practice some people practice. Therefore its a fine line between being prepared and being seen as an aggressor, and as he puts it, he could easily convince a jury that the shooter had in fact been planning for such an occasion and was looking forward to the opportunity to stop by any means, such an attack.

    We also discussed what might be a reasonable (legally speaking) home defense shotgun and ammo, and agreed that the following would provide plenty of plausible deniability.
    a midrange priced pump or autoloader, with a shorter 26 inch bbl and screw in chokes, using an improved cylinder tube. For ammo factory or handloaded 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 ounce of lead BB or BBB shot at nominal hunting velocities. (Since these loads could in fact be readily available as turkey loads it could be argued they were not designed primarily for self defense.)
    The argument by a defense lawyer would of course be, that it was a shotgun designed for hunting as was the ammo thus at least while used as home protection that wasnt the prime goal.
    Now these thoughts are from a couple of pro gun folks, just imagine what the anti gunners could do with it in court?
     
  21. jdh

    jdh Member

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    Any prosecutor who would take a good home defense shoot an pervert it into the acts of a deranged premeditating killer based on the home owner's choice of the proper tool for the job should be disbarred, tared (the hotter the tar pot is before dipping him/her in it the better) and feathered, and rode out of town on a rail.
     
  22. C0untZer0

    C0untZer0 Member

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    His consensus ?

    Is he schizophrenic?
     
  23. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    A "consensus" of one amounts to an "opinion". A consensus implies a group decision making process.

    This DA obviously is out to get convictions regardless of the circumstances, it seems to me.

    It also seems to me that this DA has no concept of what the word "deadly" means with respect to "deadly force". If I need to use deadly force to defend myself or another person, then by definition I'm using force which I know will either kill or seriously injure another human being. And if I've reached that point, I have absolutely NO business intentionally planning and using anything LESS than deadly force. Like bird shot. Bird shot is deadly to birds, not humans; hence the name "bird shot".


    To have a well thought out defense plan is not pre-meditated murder. Or premeditated manslaughter. Not having any plan is leaving one's defense of life and limb to "chance".

    It is the job of the DA to press charges against those whom he perceives to be in violation of the law as he sees fit, in accordance with the circumstances and evidence of each particular case. In self defense cases, that is SUPPOSED to start with what the states laws say with respect to deadly force and when it's permissable. From there, the DA has to look at the case and determine whether or not there is a reasonable suspicion as to whether or not its use in that case was NOT justified.

    If the use of deadly force was NOT justified, or it's not clear that it was justified, then the DA must, in good conscience, press charges. That's what he's paid to do.

    If the evidence is clear-cut that it WAS justified, then the next question is whether or not any other laws were violated in the process.


    For example:

    A gang of five armed people chase a man and woman into their home, forceably breaking their way inside, destroying everything in their path and discharging firearms. Man reaches his gun and defends himself and his wife with deadly force, resulting in the death of all the attackers. The entire attack is caught on various security cameras from the moment the attacker's van screeches to a halt and dumps the armed attackers off all the way through to their armed home invasion and their sudden deaths at the hands of the armed homeowner.

    Open and shut case of self defense where deadly force is clearly permitted by state law and the DA chooses not to press charges.


    HOWEVER, the homeowner defended himself and his wife with deadly force using a firearm with an illegally owned silencer per the federal laws under NFA. The DA chooses to prosecute the homeowner for the illegally owned silencer.
     
  24. hartcreek

    hartcreek member

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    The aim is to stop the attack perminantly which is why I load 000 buckshot and layer bbs in the voidsand use 20 some grains of Red Dot. What ever I hit aint gonna survive so shot placement is critical meaning avoiding anything that I do not want destroyed.

    I too load my own 5 000 and the voids filled with BBs for 2 3/4 hulls 7 000 and the voids filled with BBs for 3 inch hulls. I used the phone book and sheet of scrap plywood methods to test. They sure worked well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2014
  25. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    The fellow a few posts ago who talked about "an ADA" and how he'd prosecute many of the "defend home and life" cases might just have come from my area - south Florida. During my time on the job I saw a number of cops prosecuted (mostly during the Janet Reno era - before she went to Washington to work for the Clinton administration...). Since I was my department's representative to the then monthly Dade county police/prosecutor meetings she ran way back then I had a front row seat to that kind of mindset. The good news for all concerned is that almost none of the cases I knew about were ever successfully prosecuted. That, of course, says nothing about the stress, aggravation, and costs of finding yourself on the wrong end of any prosecution....

    Of course as my Dad would say "Guess they told him (or them) what they thought of him". And that, of course, was the object of the exercise.

    Despite that you have the right to defend yourself. My counsel to anyone asking would be just make sure you have no other choice before firing that first shot in self defense. You really want to be in the strongest position possible for all the really bad weather that will come your way afterward...

    To come full circle I can still think of no better defensive ammo than ordinary 00buck, in a standard 2 3/4" shell. At ranges under 20 meters that load is a fight ender if you hit center mass...
     

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