when and if you are attacked, which is mostly when it's least expected, it is very difficult to draw and open a folder because of the adrenaline rush and the initial confusion about what is happening, a fixed blade is always loaded and ready to go. however your initial response would be an empty hand deflection and strike of some sort, giving you time to draw and use your knife or firearm. think about the reality, not the flashy ads for the reinvented fighting knife.
Defensive Knife - General Questions
- Thread starter Bobson
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Welcome to THR.
In my experience- both as a former infantryman, and as someone with many years of martial arts- under stress, you do what you've trained to do.
It helps if you have thousands of good repititions of getting offline while blocking and drawing your folder.
You might find that good, consistent training and continual awareness cuts down on "unexpected attacks".
John
In my experience- both as a former infantryman, and as someone with many years of martial arts- under stress, you do what you've trained to do.
It helps if you have thousands of good repititions of getting offline while blocking and drawing your folder.
You might find that good, consistent training and continual awareness cuts down on "unexpected attacks".
John
thank you for the welcome, yes I have many years of various martial arts training plus combat experience, i completely agree that we are all responsible for our own safety and health and should not wholly rely on others, and if you don't have any training remember the first rule of self defense is ovoid putting yourself in a potentially dangerous situation if at all possible.
1911 guy
Member
I carry two knives, one is a folder for everyday stuff. The other is the aforementioned TDI-LE. A fixed blade is very hard to screw up and I don't discount at all the ability of a short blade to make someone leak an awful lot of blood in a quick hurry when the cut is a half inch to one inch deep and a foot long.
When i'm thinking defensive knife, I look at it with an eye toward handgun retention. This requires one handed use, accesability with either hand an a blade that maximizes wound depth or length. Personally, I opt for length. Going deep can invite trouble with a knife lodging in something, anything from muscle, bone or bunched up clothing, with enough resistance to inhibit you from withdrawing it for another attack as you'd like.
When i'm thinking defensive knife, I look at it with an eye toward handgun retention. This requires one handed use, accesability with either hand an a blade that maximizes wound depth or length. Personally, I opt for length. Going deep can invite trouble with a knife lodging in something, anything from muscle, bone or bunched up clothing, with enough resistance to inhibit you from withdrawing it for another attack as you'd like.
There are several aspects to address here. First, there are few universals where such questions are concerned. I would have to disagree with the assertion because the issue is one of personal preference. What works well for one person fails for another. That said, one must have enough training under their belt to know what they actually prefer. The great hazard where training is concerned lies in the fact that bad habits, once adopted, are very difficult to free oneself from. So you must know what you are doing to some minimal degree before being reasonably qualified to determine such choices. Yet, one must start with something and that begs the question, "what?" Mr. Chicken, meet Mr. Egg.
All combat situations are potentially terminal events. Even school yard punches in the nose can lead to death or serious injury. This fact alone should make it clear to one and all why fighting of any form should be avoided at any reasonable cost. Because of the grave threat that ALL combat presents to all engaging in it, reliability becomes a grand virtue. Any combat severe enough to warrant the production and use of a knife demands absolute reliability of the weapon, which includes fool-proof operation. Folding knives are operationally less simple than fixed blades. What seems to us an insignificant aspect of use under relaxed circumstances becomes a potentially fatal complication when one's life is flashing before their eyes.
A fixed blade knife is always superior to any other type, all else equal. They are simpler to produce under stress and are sturdier. When your life depends on it, you do not want a knife to fail in any manner or degree.
I gave up on Spyderco after losing several of them. I don't know what their quality is like these days, but about 15 or so years ago it took a noticeable dive while their prices went through the roof. That was enough for me.
JShirley hit the nail on the head, repetitive operation is better than any new little trick or AO gimicks IMO. my co-worker has a kershaw with spring assist and i have a crkt ripple with bearings and no springs, and we can not tell which opens faster, but i can open my all stainless spyderco with a flick into a reverse position faster than his kershaw
I don't usually post in this section as my experience with the defensive use of knives had been fairly limited, until a couple of weeks ago.
I carried a variety of folding knives over time, usually following whatever the current fad was. This went through stilettos, balisongs, bucks, tanto shapes and everything between. I've carried them for work, but never had to use one defensively (as I was to discover, this was a good thing). I currently carry a Spyderco large Wegner or a CRKT S-2
There aren't a lot of folks who teach the use of a defensive folder without a long build up, rituals and skill drills and I just never seem to have the time. But when you figure out that a pistol isn't the best answer (I'm a big handgun guy) at contact distances, sometimes you just need to look harder.
What I ended up doing is attending a Michael Janich Martial Blade Concepts (MBC) two day class which was held locally. The presentation was presented in an engaging manner and showed a well researched and thought out approach to using a folder for defense. I have many of the same questions listed and many of the misconceptions of the use of a knife defensively that have followed the OP. Allow me to share some of what I have taken away from the two days:
You want a straight blade/cutting edge to get the most out of each cut. A blade with a lot of belly...like a wave shape...stops cutting as the angle of the blade comes parallel to the angle of your cutting stroke. It just slides along at a constant depth.
The American Tanto point (the Japanese blade shape on their tanto is different) that is currently so popular is ideally suited to penetrate something thin, like the sheet metal of a car door (we've all see that demo haven't we?)...but has no cutting power until you get past the point and into the blade. The question then becomes, when we the last time you were attacked by a car door?
Janich explained how to open a folder using gravity...it is about rotating the blade around the pivot point. When done correctly, it is like magic...I'm still practicing. I'm still using the hole or stud to start the blade out, but I can't see going with a two handed opening motion
As much as I find the blade shape distasteful, I'm waiting for the Spyderco Yojimbo 2 to hit the shelves
I carried a variety of folding knives over time, usually following whatever the current fad was. This went through stilettos, balisongs, bucks, tanto shapes and everything between. I've carried them for work, but never had to use one defensively (as I was to discover, this was a good thing). I currently carry a Spyderco large Wegner or a CRKT S-2
There aren't a lot of folks who teach the use of a defensive folder without a long build up, rituals and skill drills and I just never seem to have the time. But when you figure out that a pistol isn't the best answer (I'm a big handgun guy) at contact distances, sometimes you just need to look harder.
What I ended up doing is attending a Michael Janich Martial Blade Concepts (MBC) two day class which was held locally. The presentation was presented in an engaging manner and showed a well researched and thought out approach to using a folder for defense. I have many of the same questions listed and many of the misconceptions of the use of a knife defensively that have followed the OP. Allow me to share some of what I have taken away from the two days:
You want a straight handle to focus your strikes on the edge of the blade as an extension of your arm structure. It also makes strikes with the butt (is that what you call it on a knife handle?) of the knife more accurate.
You want a straight blade/cutting edge to get the most out of each cut. A blade with a lot of belly...like a wave shape...stops cutting as the angle of the blade comes parallel to the angle of your cutting stroke. It just slides along at a constant depth.
The American Tanto point (the Japanese blade shape on their tanto is different) that is currently so popular is ideally suited to penetrate something thin, like the sheet metal of a car door (we've all see that demo haven't we?)...but has no cutting power until you get past the point and into the blade. The question then becomes, when we the last time you were attacked by a car door?
Because that don't usually have the retention to stay closed in your pocket. There is nothing like reaching into a pocket and discovering the sharpened edge of your knife with your thumb or web of your hand...I understand it is a self-correcting error. There are assisted opening knives that have a lock to keep this from happening...but then there goes your speed advantage.
Janich explained how to open a folder using gravity...it is about rotating the blade around the pivot point. When done correctly, it is like magic...I'm still practicing. I'm still using the hole or stud to start the blade out, but I can't see going with a two handed opening motion
If you are using a knife with the intention to stop (either the arm from further attacks, or the leg from supporting your attacker) as opposed to kill (to bleed out or stop the CNS), I think you'll find that the slash is the preferred method. I've become convinced, through demonstrations during the class, that it takes very little to slash a bare arm to the bone with a 3" blade or a denim covered arm or leg enough to sever the major muscles. The slash stops your attacker faster than a stab will. because cutting major muscle groups and tendons takes away their ability to continue.conwict said:
As much as I find the blade shape distasteful, I'm waiting for the Spyderco Yojimbo 2 to hit the shelves
Ha!
I wondered if that would be the end result. Need to see if my favorite knife pusher has them in stock...
We can disagree about the fastest stop. Personally, I think brain shutoff is about as fast as it gets, and it's far secondary to me whether my attacker lives or dies. I just want to go home in one piece.
John
I wondered if that would be the end result. Need to see if my favorite knife pusher has them in stock...
We can disagree about the fastest stop. Personally, I think brain shutoff is about as fast as it gets, and it's far secondary to me whether my attacker lives or dies. I just want to go home in one piece.
John
My understanding is they will be out in June.
I agree about shutting off the CNS, but it is a lot harder to get to (actually it is further in the progression)...we target what the attacker gives us..., but the main focus of the class was to not get cut and to get away.
A lot of useful stuff I wish I had known when I was working the streets. None of his stops are based on strength, but on structure
I agree about shutting off the CNS, but it is a lot harder to get to (actually it is further in the progression)...we target what the attacker gives us..., but the main focus of the class was to not get cut and to get away.
A lot of useful stuff I wish I had known when I was working the streets. None of his stops are based on strength, but on structure
I'd like to clear something up that has created an incorrect impression. I do not insist that a knife have a "straight handle" nor a "straight blade". There are too many valid styles of defense to restrict choices that way. I do advise a relatively straight blade because they're easier to sharpen, but a slight recurve is fine as well (in spite of the headaches in sharpening). I also don't insist upon a straight handle. Radical angles between blade and grip are not useful except for very specific styles (kerambit and TDI), but a saber cant is fine as is an inline grip. You have to be able to hold onto the knife when in violent use and radical grip and blade designs sacrifice that in a hammer or ice pick grip so getting too far from what supports your grip is a bad idea.
A lot of people try to build a better mouse trap and only end up with a more intereting looking one.
Michael Janich has spent more time handling and practicing with knives for self defense than most have spent thinking or talking about it. He's an outstanding trainer with solid experience to draw on. That's a great combination that anyone can benefit from.
Tang, wrt opening the folder, think flinging snot off your fingers.
A lot of people try to build a better mouse trap and only end up with a more intereting looking one.
Michael Janich has spent more time handling and practicing with knives for self defense than most have spent thinking or talking about it. He's an outstanding trainer with solid experience to draw on. That's a great combination that anyone can benefit from.
Tang, wrt opening the folder, think flinging snot off your fingers.
Hey, I'm all for that. Unfortunately, if you're caught "inside", you have to fight your way out. Of course, I'm sure Janich covered that well.
I've put one deer down with a knife. Just under the jaw is instanteous. Works with firearms, too.
J
mdauben
Member
I'm not totally sold on the wave either, but if I was planning to carry one I would buy not only the waved knife, but a waved trainer and get several hundred repetitions of the draw in before I even through about carrying it.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
http://www.personalarmament.com/201...-as-a-defensive-tool-with-michael-janich.html
How to select a knife as a defensive tool, with Michael Janich (Audio)
How to select a knife as a defensive tool, with Michael Janich (Audio)
sidheshooter
Member
I'm not totally sold on the wave either, but if I was planning to carry one I would buy not only the waved knife, but a waved trainer and get several hundred repetitions of the draw in before I even through about carrying it.
The wave strikes me as one of those things that looks extremely cool on video, and in the training hall under training hall conditions.
I bought a waved trainer (since that's all that Emerson had available) and tried to give it a fair shot, but I ended up with an unacceptable rate of half... er... half-opened deployment attempts, unless I was stock still and paying attention.
I ground the wave off so it matches my old-school production CQC-7. The devil you know, and all that. With the old-school liner lock folder, at least I know where I stand if someone is already hands-on and roughing me up: that's no time to rely upon hooking small bits of fabric for your survival, IMVHO.
We shall see how that philosophy treats me in the same Janich course that Mod 9mm took last month; my shot comes up in a few weeks.
Janich has a very definite opinion on the wave opening...but you'll have to ask him.
The story is highly amusing (which is different from factual), but it is something more for oral dissemination than for publication
The story is highly amusing (which is different from factual), but it is something more for oral dissemination than for publication
sidheshooter
Member
Heh. Roger that.
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