Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

define liberal, conservative, libertarian

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Ukraine Train, Jun 14, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ukraine Train

    Ukraine Train Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,233
    Location:
    Cleveland
    I know liberals' and conservatives' approach to guns but am unfamiliar with their traditional views on the rest of government. Can someone enlighten me? I'd also like to hear about libertarianism as a lot of people are advocating it. I vowed not to get involved with politics when I was a kid but I find that harder to do nowadays heh.
     
  2. BigG

    BigG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,081
    Location:
    Dixieland
    Those are high context words, meaning, you have to be applying them to a particular case in order to make sense of them.

    In the American form of representative govt TODAY, if you take a continuum between high state control and high individual freedom as its poles, liberal is towards state control while conservative is towards individual freedom. Libertarian as applies to the American form of govt only occurs in the vacuum of space.
     
  3. fix

    fix Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,592
    Location:
    Wonderful Northeast Georgia
    The real answer is that they mean nothing. Absolutely nothing. We have left and right. The scale IMO, is something like this, with the founders falling into place as noted with the 'F'.

    Democrats----------------------Libertarians----F--Republicans-----Constitution Party

    The Demorats represent good old fashioned communism. The Libertarians are "responsible liberals" and are very close to the mark, but are a bit too liberal on some issues. The Republicans are pretty close to the mark, but a bit to the right on a few social issues. The Constitution Party is as far to the right as is morally acceptable, any further and you're looking at a theocracy.
     
  4. KCMO

    KCMO Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2004
    Messages:
    34
  5. BigG

    BigG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,081
    Location:
    Dixieland
    Well, at least we agree there's a continuum. ;)
     
  6. fjolnirsson

    fjolnirsson Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,746
    Location:
    Oregon, in the Willamette Valley
    Fix,

    That's actually pretty good. I'd never thought about it that way.

    Awesome! Good description.

    FWIW, on those political compass tests, I usually come up as a very right leaning Libertarian. Whatever that means.

    I support Libertarian views of most things, with the glaring exception of open borders and non agression. If we eliminated the welfare goodies to be had, I think illegal immigration would be less of a problem, sure. But I don't think it would stop. I think we should be kicking folks out at this point. And shooting border jumpers. To do otherwise is to invitre crime and disease into this country. JMHO.

    Non agression? That only works if the rest of the world agrees. I do think we have our noses in too many other people's business. I say we pull out of all these countries who say they hate us, let them sink on their own. I'm tired of subsidizing the world with my taxes.

    Rant over.
     
  7. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    19,285
    Location:
    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    Unfortunately, with the exception of the libertarians, its hard to see who is what without a score sheet.

    If you go waaaaay back, to the late 1700's or so, a liberal of the day would have more in common with a modern libertarian. Nowadays that's quite obviously not the case.

    In the more modern era, say the 1920's to the late '70's, early 80's conservatives were typically marked by being resistant to changing things, as well as adherence to the concept of 'that which governs least, governs best.' In other words, fewer taxes, less government intrusion. Liberals of the era were marked by policies advocating bigger government and higher taxes.

    Currently, conservatism is deader than disco and has been replaced with neo-conservatism, which espouses many of the ideals traditionally held by conservatives, but generally involves massive government spending to realize those ideals.

    In other words, neo-cons don't see massive governmental growth as a bad thing, which would be a concept considered anathema to traditional, or old-school conservatives.

    Examples of each:

    Old School liberals- Locke, the Founding Fathers
    Modern liberals- Hillary Clinton, Charles Schumer, John McCain
    Traditional Conservatives- Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, Florence King
    Neo-Conservatives- Joseph McCarthy,* Jonah Goldberg, John McCain, George W. Bush
    libertarians- see old school liberals**, Rep. Ron Paul, P.J. O'Rourke, Ludwig Von Mises, Murray Rothbard

    In the end, labels such as 'conservative' or 'liberal' tend to be very fluid.



    *McCarthy could possibly be seen as an embryonic neo-con.

    **Obviously the founding fathers might not agree with every conclusion drawn by modern libertarians, but they certainly have more in common with them than any other currently flouted ideology.
     
  8. TallPine

    TallPine Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    7,734
    Location:
    somewhere in the middle of Montana
    Not me! :p

    The only difference between Democrats and Republicans and other parties is who and what and how they want to CONTROL via the govt.

    Libertarians OTOH think that you shouldn't be controlling anyone.
    Edit: Except Yourself!
     
  9. fix

    fix Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,592
    Location:
    Wonderful Northeast Georgia
    Probably means you are a productive member of society, have sound moral principles, believe strongly in personal responsibility and freedom, but you are not necessarily governed by strict religious principles. In other words, pretty darn close to the model American.

    How'd I do?

    FWIW, I'm straddling the 's' in Constitution...
     
  10. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    19,285
    Location:
    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    fix-

    Libertarians do not fit the traditional one-dimensional political continuum as you've drawn it. If Democrats represent communisim, then the libertarians would be completely at the other end due to their belief in a nearly, or completely unfettered free market.

    The Left------------------------Right political spectrum is nowhere near reflective of current political viewpoints.

    Whereas the traditional continuum is drawn on a single dimension- a straight horizontal line, ie the X-axis, one more reflective of todays politics would have both an X and a Y-axis and look like a flat plane instead of a simple line.

    The best example of this can be seen in what is termed 'The World's Smallest Political Quiz'

    [​IMG]

    Image taken from:
    http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html
     
  11. fjolnirsson

    fjolnirsson Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,746
    Location:
    Oregon, in the Willamette Valley
    Kinda funny. I'm one of the most religious people I've ever met. I attend worship regularly, follow strict religious/moral guidelines, ask for guidance on a daily basis, contribute time and money to church activities and I'm actually working on my ordainment.

    I just don't proselytize. I figure if others want to know, they'll ask.
    And I don't expect others to live by my rules. that's just silly.



    I guess I should add that I meant it as far as the standard, one dimensional view goes. Sometimes the compass outlook is a little crowded and confusing.
     
  12. fix

    fix Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,592
    Location:
    Wonderful Northeast Georgia
    Well darn. I guess I was off a bit.
     
  13. fix

    fix Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,592
    Location:
    Wonderful Northeast Georgia
    Regarding the quiz.

    I've always suspected that thing was nothing more than a neat little gimmick intended to make people think that they are libertarians. Manipulating answers to try to achieve an intended result seems to bear this out for me. I've read the FAQ, and their answer for this, so no need to try to convert me.
     
  14. fjolnirsson

    fjolnirsson Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,746
    Location:
    Oregon, in the Willamette Valley
    Most people are, when it comes to me.
    I'm a contradiction in terms.
    I also happen to be a Libertarian on his way to becoming a Peace Officer.
    That seems to confuse people. And it causes POST instructors no end of hair pulling.
     
  15. fjolnirsson

    fjolnirsson Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,746
    Location:
    Oregon, in the Willamette Valley
    Of course! Like any group, they want as many "followers" as possible. Winning converts is a time honored tradition in religion as well as politics. The more parishioners(read-voters) you have, the more money and power you recieve. It's been going on for hundreds of years.
    The only person I trust less than a politician is a journalist.
    Some of them are trustworthy, but as a whole, it's best to take everything they say with a salt lick.
     
  16. cordex

    cordex Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    2,714
    Location:
    Indiana
    fjolnirsson,
    How do you handle being required to enforce laws as a Peace Officer that conflict with your personal beliefs? After all, there is no greater tacit approval for a law than taking part in the apparatus that punishes violators.

    FWIW, the original definitions of "liberal" and "conservative" were more literal. As in, liberals were more liberal when it came to changes within the system whereas conservatives were more conservative about change. These meanings have shifted quite a bit and now come with all kinds of positions on specific issues attached to the label.

    I have to laugh at Republicans who tell me their party supports the concept of smaller government. Anyone that claims that obviously hasn't been paying attention to the political scene for the past decade or so.
     
  17. Gordon Fink

    Gordon Fink Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,322
    Location:
    California
    In the modern American political parlance …

    “liberal†= protecting certain freedoms while limiting others
    “conservative†= limiting certain freedoms while protecting others
    “libertarian†= protecting as many freedoms as possible

    The terms “liberal†and “conservative†have lost all objective meaning. I believe “libertarian†is of more recent coinage precisely because of this.

    ~G. Fink
     
  18. La Pistoletta

    La Pistoletta Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Messages:
    601
    Location:
    Sweden
    The American definition of "liberal" is a misnomer.

    Liberal means follower of liberalism, either social or classical, or some other variant. Deviant from advocacy of state control.
     
  19. Ukraine Train

    Ukraine Train Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,233
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Wow, didn't think I'd get so many convoluted answers lol. I guess my next question is what's the difference between "left" and "right?" Thanks for the replies so far.
     
  20. fix

    fix Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,592
    Location:
    Wonderful Northeast Georgia
    Well they do support the concept of smaller government, smaller than the democrats, but not small...or even smallest.
     
  21. cordex

    cordex Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    2,714
    Location:
    Indiana
    I was using "smaller" as in reference to current size, but I'm not sure that they want something all that smaller than the Dems. Just larger in different areas.
    In the time that Repubs have had control of the Legislative and Executive branches, the gov't has grown by leaps and bounds. We have seen nothing of this mythical "smaller government" that Repubs supposedly are trying to wrest from the hands of the Dems.

    I may disagree with 'em, but at least the Dems are honest that they want to steal more of my money to support programs I don't want.
    Well, now, that depends on where you stand, doesn't it?
    Generally speaking, "right" tends towards nationalism and a strong, centralized government to achieve that.
    "Left", on the other hand (so to speak), tends towards socialism and a strong, centralized government to achieve that.
     
  22. fix

    fix Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,592
    Location:
    Wonderful Northeast Georgia
    For the most part, those "areas" tend to be the one's the founders discussed in the Constitution. And how exactly does a strong central government promote nationalism?
     
  23. Barbara

    Barbara Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    3,230
    Location:
    Michigan
    I'm a radical right wing liberal. :)
     
  24. cordex

    cordex Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    2,714
    Location:
    Indiana
    *grin* Like a large standing army, eh? Or the War on Drugs?
    Fix, I don't have time to go into all the ways a strong, centralized government can be used to promote Nationalism, so I'll just give the short answer. Germany, 1938.
     
  25. fix

    fix Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,592
    Location:
    Wonderful Northeast Georgia
    I invoke Godwin's Law!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page