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Delay status on a 45 pistol.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by vongh, Sep 13, 2014.

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  1. vongh

    vongh Member

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    I stopped in last Friday to one of my favorite places to buy reloading supplies, ammo and other interesting goodies and filled out the paper work on a new S&W M&P 45 full size and after 5 minutes they told me that my backround check was on delay status . I went to the same place last year and bought a mini-14 and waited 3 weeks before I was approved. So I wasn't surprised. My wife who has bought a 9mm pistol was approved in 5 minutes (gunshow). I have never been in trouble and am getting tired of waiting excessive amounts of time to buy a firearm. I should also mention that this has happened to me with an AR-15, after 3 weeks with no response I canceled the order. I bought a 30-06 from a different dealer and was on delay for 3 days which seems quite reasonable to me. My question is what is the "normal " wait time. I live in Albuquerque NM. Does this happen everywhere? Or should I find another place to do business with?

    Thanks
     
  2. Center fire

    Center fire Member

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    It is my understanding the FBI has 3 days to complete the background check, if not the dealer can complete the transfer by default.
     
  3. vongh

    vongh Member

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    Someone told me something similar but I have yet to have it confirmed.
     
  4. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    In Arizona, if you have a valid CHL, you can buy guns without the check at all. I never had one, but I was told that literally every time I ever bought a gun there from a licensed dealer. Presumably though, you just give em your CHL and they do their magic, and you pay and leave - no call for NICS check, no chance you'll be delayed.

    That might also be the case in NM (heck, maybe in every state?). Worth Looking into.
     
  5. JellyJar

    JellyJar Member

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    I believe that you can get a pin number to use that will keep you from getting delayed.

    I don't know how to get it though.
     
  6. vongh

    vongh Member

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    I was buying the 45 to qualify for my concealed carry permit .
     
  7. vongh

    vongh Member

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    When they told me about the delay I asked about the upin and they (gunshop person)stated that it would almost certainly cause a delay. Don't know if there is any truth to that also.
     
  8. rondog

    rondog Member

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    Days? Weeks? When I buy one here in CO it's usually an hour or less. Is that a NM thing?
     
  9. Schutzen

    Schutzen Member

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    The gun shop guy was full of BS. A UPIN will process very quickly. The UPIN is a unique number to distinguish you from every other person in the US with a name similar to yours. If your record is clean, you get the number and you are good to go.
     
  10. Jlr2267

    Jlr2267 Member

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    After 3 business days, the FFL holder can complete the sale w/out a decision from NICS. Some will do exactly that, others won't.
     
  11. steve4102

    steve4102 Member

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    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/federal-firearms-licensees/a-nics-delay


    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/federal-firearms-licensees/ffl-manual
     
  12. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    My observation is that "normal" for the approval is about 5 seconds. That is the time from the store employee speaking the last bit of required information until they receive an "approved". The normal total process including hold time and copying down confirmation numbers seems to be under 5 minutes.

    People with common names and some bad luck (meaning at least one person with similar name, age, and other info has a criminal record) wait much longer than normal. I suspect you are finding that out.

    Does it happen everywhere? Yes, though some states are worse. You are seeing the system at its best.

    You will probably see the same results everywhere in NM.
     
  13. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    Well, I'll confirm that for you, but only in states that USE NICS, and not all do.

    Also, it might be "store policy" to not complete the sale until they get a "proceed", even though they legally -can- complete the sale after the 3 full business days have passed.

    So, you have two things to investigate:

    1) does NM use a system other than NICS?
    2) does the store have a policy to complete the sale on a PROCEED only

    If the answer to BOTH of the above is NO, then the "three weeks" is bovine scat.

    If the answer to either one is YES, then that is the source of the "issue".

    Is SC we -do- use NICS. If I get a DELAY, I will complete the sale after the 3 days have passed. It is -quite normal- for me to NEVER get any final disposition on my DELAY from NICS until after 30 days have passed and the record vanishes from the on-line system.
     
  14. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    Here is how, fill this out and send it in with the required docs:

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/appeals/nics_vaf_brochure_eng.pdf

    It isn't a -guarantee-, but it should help if you get DELAY a lot. Again, NICS only, not any of the hokey state run systems.
     
  15. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    That "gunshop person" is an idiot. Find a new one.
     
  16. g.willikers

    g.willikers Member

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    It's amazing the mis-information that's available at gun shops.
    Yud think if anyone would know the laws and procedures it would be folks who make their living on the subject.
    It would be hard to imagine the lost sales because of not knowing this stuff.
     
  17. mbogo

    mbogo Member

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    It's not you, it's them.

    NICS has been experiencing outages due to an 'upgrade' - they're adding a new version of the I3 data base; when a search fails, they have to reboot the NICS system, causing the outage.

    mbogo
     
  18. suemarkp

    suemarkp Member

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    If you keep getting DELAYs, then ask for the NTN (NICS transaction number) or STN (State Transaction NUmber) next time you're delayed. You need that to get the UPIN to fix future delays. There is a time limit to complete the paperwork (88 days) because the NTN is purged after a period of time and they can't go back to look at what caused the delay.

    You need a set of fingerprints, and getting those can take a while in some places.

    I don't know if you end up with a UPIN after this, or this just helps you get one. This info is from a DOJ booklet titles "NICS - A Guide for Appealing a Firearm Transfer".

    You can also go here for info: www.fbi.gov/nics-appeals
     
  19. vongh

    vongh Member

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    Thanks for all the replies. After reading them it makes me want to go shopping elsewhere. I'm sure that there are other gun shops that would appreciate my business more than this place.
     
  20. bikemutt

    bikemutt Member

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    As a lucky UPIN holder I can assure you it will not always make the delay go away. Having said that, I would say I get a delay status very infrequently, maybe once every couple months or so. When I do get delayed it resolves anywhere from the next day to almost 3 days.

    Keep in mind the UPIN is not even asked for in the first round of questions. If the first round of question results in NICS "further review", then after a pause the UPIN may be asked for. At this point I believe it must go to an examiner for the final Proceed or Deny. This is usually when the Delay comes up. I've always figured it goes to delay because there aren't enough examiners on the clock, or the examiner work queues are long enough that it will not get before one in a timely fashion.

    The prospect of a delay is one reason I rarely buy a gun from a distant in-state dealer, it's rarely worth the time it takes to have to drive to heck and back twice.
     
  21. johncantiusgarand

    johncantiusgarand Member

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    The UPIN also creates a permanent federal record of your firearm purchases. It is referred to as a "Voluntary Appeal File", because you are volunteering to have a file created on you about all your firearm transactions in order to streamline the approval process. Federal law prohibits retention of these records, but by getting a UPIN, you are giving them permission to retain these forever, or until you request that this UPIN be canceled (then they're supposed to purge these records). If this matters to you, then a UPIN may not be the best route. I've been considering it anyway though, because I've gotten DENIED 3 times despite my squeaky clean record. Each of my subsequent appeals was overturned within a day, but it was embarrassing and aggravating. I can't imagine waiting 3 weeks!
     
  22. stchman

    stchman Member

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    Yes, the NICS people have THREE working days to respond to a Delay with either a Proceed or Deny. If after that, the FFL can complete the transaction with a proceed.

    There are some businesses like Walmart, Dick's, that will not sell you a firearm unless they get a Proceed. It is purely up to the FFL.
     
  23. Jim K

    Jim K Member.

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    Whatever the reason for the delay, the gun has nothing to do with it. The dealer provides no information on the gun, only handgun, long gun, or receiver. Not caliber, not magazine capacity, not action type, not serial number.

    Jim
     
  24. bikemutt

    bikemutt Member

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    I don't believe a VAF permits the FBI to keep a record of a UPIN holder's firearms transactions. What it permits them to do is to keep a record of whatever evidence they have that the UPIN holder is indeed not a prohibited person.

    For example, two individuals have the same identifying characteristics, one is a law-abiding citizen with no criminal record, the other is a convicted felon. Every time the good guy goes to buy a gun the system flags it, that's how it works. Once flagged the transfer will be denied and must be appealed in order to proceed. The purpose of the VAF is to allow the FBI to save the information which was gathered as part of a successful appeal. This way, instead of denying the transfer they can infer from the UPIN that the denial is unnecessary because it has already been successfully appealed.

    The likelihood of being repeatedly denied without a UPIN is quite high, almost certain.

    The NICS does not keep a record of a proceeded 4473 for more than 24 hours, UPIN or no UPIN.
     
  25. vongh

    vongh Member

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    So as of tonight. I've been waiting two weeks for my delay status to be updated. I called the ffl on Wednesday to ask about my status with the hopes they had gotten a response and just haven't gotten around to calling me. But they hadn't heard anything yet. They did give the phone number that they call for the FBI and NICS case number. So I called and listened to the robo operator which directed me to customer service. Needless to say the first lady that answered was the extension I was transfer 3 more times to different operators before the final transferred me to a message that politely thanked me for calling and hung up on me. The ffl said it was there policy not release the firearm till they get a proceed so I guess ill just have wait. Its a good thing I am a patient person because I should be going nuts over this.
     
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