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Denied Renewal of My CWP

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by USMCsilver, Aug 25, 2004.

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  1. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Member

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    Okay folks, at a member's request, I am posting this on THR. There will be a letter of denial of my renewal, my appeal to the denial, then another denial, and my 2nd appeal. Please chime in if you have any valuable information to add:

    "This letter will acknowledge your application for your Renewed Concealed Weapons Permit and inform you that your application is denied.

    Investigation of your application reveals you were convicted in 1996 of Speeding. In 1997 you were convicted of Speeding (2) counts. In 1998 you were convicted of Driving Too Fast For Conditions. In 1999 you were convicted of Speeding. In 2001 you were convicted of Speeding (2) counts.

    Traffic offenses are classified by South Carolina Code of Laws Section 56-5-6190 as misdemeanor crimes, punishable by fines or imprisonment. Speeding is specifically classified by South Carolina Code Section 56-5-6190 as a misdemeanor crime. This matter should have been addressed in your CWP training class.

    While traffic offenses might be considered, for some purposes, minor offenses, a record containing a significant number of such violations occurring over a significant period of time is properly considered when assessing the background created by an applicant. The applicant under consideration is for a permit to carry a concealed firearm in public places and to exercise judgment as to whether and when to use it. A significant record of traffic offenses creates an inference of a propensity to exercise poor judgment and to willfully and knowledgeably violate the law and place the general public at significant risk.

    Section 23-3-215 (b), South Carolina Code of Laws, as amended, states that SLED must issue a permit if, a fingerprint review and background check are favorable. Because, we are not able to conclude that the background revealed by your investigation is a favorable one for the purposes of this program, we must deny your application.

    Pursuant to Section 23-31-215 (d), South Carolina Code of Laws, as amended, you may appeal this denial to Captain Cliff Weir. Your appeal must be in writing, contain the reasons that you believe you were incorrectly denied a permit, and must be received by Captain Weir within thirty days of your receipt of this letter."
     
  2. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Member

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    After getting the letter, I wrote this as my appeal:

    July 21, 2004


    Captain Cliff Weir
    South Carolina Law Enforcement Division
    P.O. Box 21398
    Columbia, SC 29221-1398

    Capt. Weir,

    This letter is a formal appeal to the denial of my concealed weapons permit renewal that I received on July 9, 2004. (RCWP 31708)

    The letter of denial states that I have received too many speeding tickets over a certain period of time. However, I feel that this is not a logical reason to deny my permit renewal. My initial permit was issued in May of 2000. While having the permit over a four-year period, I was issued two tickets for speeding violations, but these citations were in 2001. Since 2001, I have not received any tickets nor do I intend to do so henceforth. Since 2001, I have realized that speeding is not worth it and I have decided to pay close attention to my speed and the posted limit; hence the fact that I have not been stopped for speeding, nor for any other reason, in three years. To compound on that, I became married late 2000 and have matured significantly since that time. Secondly, it seems that if my driving record was so bad, my driver’s license would be revoked due to the fact that a motor vehicle is much more deadly a weapon than a firearm could ever be.

    It sounds like the letter is basically trying to state that I am irresponsible. However, that is not the case. I am full-time student at the University of South Carolina in the College of Criminology where I am pursuing a B.A. in Criminal Justice. In my past six semesters as a full-time student, I have received only three "B's" while the rest were "A's"; I consider this far from being irresponsible. Additionally, I had a permit for four years; during that four-year period, never did I show misuse or poor judgment while carrying a firearm. Lastly, I am a former United States Marine who knows how to handle firearm and strictly abides by the four safety rules, so I hardly think that my driving record shows a direct correlation to my ability to carry a firearm, nor to my personal character.

    Thank you Captain Weir for your time and willingness to consider my appeal to the denial of my permit renewal. As a law abiding United States citizen who is pursuing a career in law enforcement, I ask that you please reverse the initial decision and grant the renewal of my permit.


    Sincerely,



    USMCsilver
     
  3. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Member

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    July 30, 2004

    USMCsilver
    Blah, blah, blah
    Camden, SC 29020

    Please Refer To: RCWP-31708

    Dear Mr. USMCsilver:

    I am writing in response to your appeal of the denial of your application for a Concealable Weapons Permit. Your application was denied on July 8, 2004 by our staff because of your criminal record.

    Investigation of your applicatron revealed your convictions tn:
    1996 of Speeding
    1997 of Speeding (2) counts
    1998 of Driving Too Fast for Conditions
    1999 ofSpeeding
    2001 ofSpeeding (2) counts

    Some time ago, it came to our attention that some applicants have signrficant records of violating trafflc laws, all of which are classified in SC law as misdemeanor crimes and many of which resulted in crashes, which, of course, results in injuries or deaths of members of the public who are involved. As you know, many more people are injured and killed in traffic incidents than by tirearms. For these reasons, we cannot conclude that a background which contains a significant number of traffic offense convictions over a significant period of time is "favorable", specifically for these reasons:

    (1) traffic offenses are crimes;

    (2) moving traffic offenses create danger and significant risk to personal safety for other members of the general public;

    (3) traffic offenses occurring in significant numbers over a significant period of time call into question the quality of judgment and use of discretion by the offender;

    (4) traffic offenses occurring in significant numbers over a significant period of time exhibit a propenstty on the part of the applicant to carelessly or purposely and willfully disregard and violate state law.

    All of these issues are serious in their implications when the application under consideration is for the authority to carry a concealed firearm in public places, to know and act in accord with applicable State law, and to exercise appropriate judgement and discretion as to when and how to use the firearm.

    After your original perrnit was issued in 1999, SLED began considering records of traffic offenses as being significant to the classification of favorability of an applicant's background.

    Section 23-31-215(B), South Carolina Code of Laws, requires that SLED issue a permit if the applicant has a favorable background check. SLED policy consistently denies applications by persons who have been convicted of crimes, including a significant traffic offense record, and who report false, inaccurate or incomplete information on application forms. Such convictions prevent a conclusion that the applicant's background is, for purposes of this program, favorable. Our policy takes into account the type, number and age of convictions, the duration of trme over which the offenses occurred, circumstances involved in the charges, whether the crimes involve moral turpitude, and whether the offenses involved use or threat of violence against another person, demonstrate willlul and knowing violations of law, and/or involved use or threat of violence against another person or significant threat to public safety.

    For these reasons, we must deny your application.

    Pursuant to Section 23-31-215(D) of the Carolina Code, you may appeal this denial to SLED Chief Robert Stewart. Your appeal must be in writing, contain the reasons you believe you were incorrectly denied a permit, and
    must be received by Chief Stewart within thirty days of your receipt of this letter.

    Sincerely.
    Clifton E. Weir
    Captain
    CEW:dlw
     
  4. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Member

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    Well, the 2nd appeal is going out in the mail tomorrow. This time, with some enclosures.

    I'm sending the following along with my appeal:
    • College transcripts
    • Certificate of Award -- President's List from Midlands Technical College
    • Certificate of Award -- Scholar's List from Midlands Technical College
    • Certicate from AAA Driver Improvement Program

    Here is my 2nd appeal letter.


    August 25, 2004

    Chief Robert Stewart
    South Carolina Law Enforcement Division
    P.O. Box 21398
    Columbia, SC 29221-1398

    Chief Stewart,

    This letter is in regards to the denial of my concealed weapons permit (RCWP 31708). This is my second appeal to attempt to get the decision reversed.

    I know that SLED has started to examine driving records to determine if one is capable of exercising the discipline needed to carry a concealed firearm into public places, and I respect that. However, I do not understand why I am no longer eligible to carry a concealed firearm due to the fact that my last traffic citation was issued in 2001.

    As noted in my previous appeal, I feel like I have matured significantly in the last three and a half years and am perfectly capable of possessing a permit and abiding the laws while doing so. In my last appeal, I mentioned that I am pursuing a B.A. in Criminal Justice at the University of South Carolina where I am receiving extremely good grades. I have changed. If you will review the enclosed college transcripts spanning an eight-year period you will see that during the last two years, I have strived to succeed. Additionally, please note the enclosed copies of the awards I have received from Midlands Technical College. I would not knowingly put myself in a situation, like speeding, that would jeopardize my employment eligibility as a future law enforcement officer; nor am I willing to risk the lives of others when I am behind the wheel of a motor vehicle.

    The following was stated in a letter from Capt. Weir: “As you know, many more people are injured and killed in traffic incidents than by firearms.†This is a valid point, however, if the state deems me safe enough to possess a valid driver’s license, then I don’t understand why SLED will not allow me to possess a concealed weapons permit. Over the course of four years while possessing my permit, never did I display misuse, or poor judgment, with my firearm. To demonstrate that I have attempted to improve my driving habits, I ask that you also examine the enclosed copy of the certificate I received from AAA’s Driver Improvement Program in 2002.

    I would like to thank you for considering the renewal of my permit. If there is anything I can do to further assist you in considering my eligibility, please do not hesitate to contact me.

    Sincerely,



    USMCsilver ;f

    (enclosures: 4)
     
  5. Travis McGee

    Travis McGee Member

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    Keep up informed of the progress of the appeal.

    In a way, it shows how the govt (even in SC) tend to use any method to restrict our RKBA.
     
  6. keano44

    keano44 Member

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    Contact your representative. Hope you have one that is on your side!
     
  7. Bainx

    Bainx member

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    They got 'the power'....we don't

    Welcome to the New World Order!
     
  8. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Unbelievable ... your driving record does not preclude you from a drivers license, but it does preclude you from a CWP ....:rolleyes:

    Anyway, I'm just glad a constitutional right has been turned into a priviledge so that dangerous folks like you won't have guns :p :D
     
  9. HankB

    HankB Member

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    So, notwithstanding your old speeding offenses, they issue a license . . . you clean up your act (with respect to speeding) and now they decide to change the standard and deny a renewal.

    Are records of traffic offenses public? It might be interesting to research the driving records of these bureaucrats, or, if they're impeccable, the driving records of their officers.
     
  10. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    What a load of crap. Still it should come as no suprise that they would stoop to such underhanded tactics to disarm America. One reason I never bought in to the "Do it the right way and get your permit" theory that is so often espoused here on THR. Anything you say, do or sign can be used against you once you're under contract with them. No offense but you did sign the paperwork (contract) with them to get your CWP and thereby agreeing to their terms, didn't you?



    So would jaywalking when they put it that way. So now the million dollar question is...Are the SC LEO's going to be held to the same standard?

    Oooo,this makes me mad just reading it.:fire:

    DMV records are available as public information. If you could come up with some cops with traffic offenses it may bolster your appeal.

    I feel for ya guy. Be careful what you sign. Would a 'Propensity to excercise poor judgement and willfully violate the law' give them grounds to come to your home for a confiscation? You wouldn't think so but on the other hand, you wouldn't think they'd hold speeding tickets against you in that manner either...Be careful!
     
  11. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Member

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    Yeah, it just doesn't make any sense. It seems that with a clean record for the last 3.5 years would be good enough. Not to mention, I am 26 and those violations occured when I was young, dumb, and...

    Anyhow, it looks like I'll drop it in the box today. It usually takes them 1.5 weeks to reject me.

    And the saga continues...
     
  12. MAUSER88

    MAUSER88 Member

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    What a load of crap is right. EVERYONE speeds only some get caught!! Is the CMP that inept????
    Hope it all works out for you in the end. If you need a reference letter, email me.
     
  13. CGofMP

    CGofMP Member

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    I do not know if I'd mention this in the letter, but ig you are going for an administration of justice degree with an eye to becoming a cop, this denial will possibly severly impact your ability to become a member of the police force. If they are going to say no to a CCW then why would they ever issue you a gun and a badge and carte blance to ccw after you get your degree.

    I would be livid over being denied a ccw over speeding... (Never mind that I am in california where we are denied ccw because we are BREATHING... but that is another story). The bottom line in my opinion is that this is just an excuse to deny. I DO agree that SEVEN convictions in 8 years is irresponsible on your part, and I wouldnt want to insure your car, but the propensity to speed does not have to translate into irresponsibility in all areas of life nor do I believe it does.

    Good luck.

    Charles
     
  14. CGofMP

    CGofMP Member

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    Just read this:
    I think that is an excellent suggestion and if you could subpeona that information and take em to COURT, if you prevailed it would eviscerate their ability to deny others on such a shoddy basis too.

    Is this the hill you wanna die on? How far will you go for the principle or the 'privlege' granted by the second ammendment?
     
  15. outfieldjack

    outfieldjack Member

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    I was the one who asked USMCsilver to post this. I was hoping someone on the board would be able to help or know someone to call. His wife and I were at lunch yesterday and she told me what was happenning. I COULD NOT BELIEVE IT!!!

    I wonder if Grassroots SC will be able to help. If the SCDOT feels he is still a good enough driver to license, then why won't SLED issue him a CWP?
     
  16. Blackhawk 6

    Blackhawk 6 Member

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    Since he has already acknowledged that "many more people are injured and killed in traffic incidents than by firearms" I would highlight that the State has not seen fit to revoke you Drivers' License, and denying you CWP based on your driving creates a disparity in how the State is determining what constitutes responsible behavior.

    I am not knowledgable with regard to your state law but there must be a standard. It can not (or should not be arbitrary). I would also request that they quantify what constitutes responsible behavior based on a driving record? How many speeding tickets can I have? Over what period of time? Will you still be considered too irresponsible when you are 60?

    Worst case, I believe a lawyer could make a good arguement for you. Good luck and drive safely.
     
  17. Hawkman

    Hawkman Member

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    Given that Capt. Weir has bananas for brains, arguing that your license to drive should be revoked will probably achieve that end.

    May I suggest you cut to the chase and GET A LAWYER RIGHT NOW!
     
  18. SC_shooter

    SC_shooter Member

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    How did you answer the question about misdemeanors on your CWP application form? If you didn't let them know about the tickets, you can be denied for that. I have heard of this happening.

    Or, was it the number of tickets?

    Paul
     
  19. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Member

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    Well, that is a chance I am obviously willing to take considering the career path I am choosing. It will be another year before I am done with school, and will have a clean record for 4 years when I do apply to become a LEO. Even after school, I may delay a job and work on my masters, so that isn't a major concern at the moment. I mentioned it to state my furture plans to see if they might express some sympathy.


    I will go as far as it takes. I think next is the Law Judge.


    I would if I could, but I can't. As you can see, I am just a poor college student. If it comes time for me to go before the Law Judge, I'll see if Grass Roots of SC can represent me pro bono. I need to join later today. ;)


    Yeah, I know. I about asked in this letter, but I didn't want it to sound like I was expecting to get denied again. That question will come later, don't worrry.


    This came up on another forum. To be honest, it was almost 4.5 years ago when I sent in my 1st application. I really don't recall what I stated on the application. And, as far as the renewal application, I didn't mention anything about my driving record b/c I either didn't notice it on the form, or because I didn't think I'd had any tickets recently. I figured all that bad driving BS was behind me...
     
  20. Bravo11

    Bravo11 Member

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    If you have any connections to LEO, Attorneys, Judges, Congressman, etc.
    You might ask them if they would write a letter in your favor to submit with the appeal.
     
  21. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Member

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    Mega, I have thought of that, but I know no one. SLED is 40 miles away, so I really don't have ties to anyone there. All the big-wigs are in the state capital of Columbia, and that, too, is 40 miles away.

    I'll try to dig up some representation in the meantime. I assume I'll get rejected again anyway...
     
  22. TarpleyG

    TarpleyG Member

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    Well, if the government cannot ban guns they will simply make it illegal for anyone to own one. One way or another, the will have their wish.

    As for this appeal--you won't get your CWP back. They have the 'law' on their side and don't care about your reasons, however valid they are to you. Our wonderful government at work. Cheery, huh?

    Greg
     
  23. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Member

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    LOL, thanks for the promising words. I am trying to be more optimistic about the whole ordeal, but in the back of my mind, I tend to agree with you.
     
  24. mete

    mete Member

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    At least talk to a lawyer, many will advise you of the possibilities in one discussion without charge....Following the states' logic you should demand everyone who has had a few traffic tickets be denied renewal of drivers licences.
     
  25. JPL

    JPL Member

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    Well, from what I've read, perhaps you should get in touch with the National Rifle Association and see if they can provide legal assistance.
     
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