Nathaniel Firethorn
Member
USMCsilver, I feel fer ya. Just got shafted in a similar way -- denied some extra umbrella insurance because of a couple of tickets for 35-in-a-25-zone.
Any excuse.
- pdmoderator
Any excuse.
- pdmoderator
Denied Renewal of My CWP
- Thread starter USMCsilver
- Start date
- Status
Mannlicher
Member
I know this won't be popular, but having a close family member killed by 'a nice young boy' who just happened to be speeding, (his third instance of that in two years), I am less sympathetic.
If the information about minor offenses having a negative impact on your license was conveyed to you when you took your class for CCW, and you paid it no heed, well, then judgment might be lacking. If you continued to speed and continued to get caught, then judgement may might be lacking.
I don't see this so much as a gun control issue, as a response to a lack of judgment.
If the information about minor offenses having a negative impact on your license was conveyed to you when you took your class for CCW, and you paid it no heed, well, then judgment might be lacking. If you continued to speed and continued to get caught, then judgement may might be lacking.
I don't see this so much as a gun control issue, as a response to a lack of judgment.
YammyMonkey
Member
Missed about the last 1/3 of this thread, but in case nobody's suggested it, go to Packing.org, find a state that has non-resident permits that SC recognizes and get one of them.
Beat 'em at their own game. Good luck.
Beat 'em at their own game. Good luck.
I may have missed it, but I don't remember reading a) the name of the person who made the original "denied" decision, b)) whether that was subject to review and approval by the issuing authority, c. if it was based upon policy, a copy of the policy and information regarding the method and date of adoption, and d. approval by oversight entities such as the legislative rules committee. If this is the result of a letter or memo, and if it does not spell out specifically the type of criminal conviction that triggers this denial, the agency's action is likely to be found arbitrary and capricious, or a violation of due process.
All the appeal hearings in the world can't unring the bell. If this wasn't done right in the beginning, each appeal is a butt-coverage exercise to obscure the essential points. I don't think you're likely to satisfy any of these officials. I like law enforcement folks generally but their cultural setting is an "us against them" framework. If you violate any law you are "them" and excuses are like navels--everyone's got 'em.
If it's important enough for you to pursue, get a pro involved. Lawyers, like divorces, are expensive because they're worth it. Find someone that's got some administrative law experience and use them wisely. Good luck.
All the appeal hearings in the world can't unring the bell. If this wasn't done right in the beginning, each appeal is a butt-coverage exercise to obscure the essential points. I don't think you're likely to satisfy any of these officials. I like law enforcement folks generally but their cultural setting is an "us against them" framework. If you violate any law you are "them" and excuses are like navels--everyone's got 'em.
If it's important enough for you to pursue, get a pro involved. Lawyers, like divorces, are expensive because they're worth it. Find someone that's got some administrative law experience and use them wisely. Good luck.
4D5
Member
They waited until renewal time ?
Here's something you might be able to add to your defense.
So now it's time for your renwal. If you are such a threat because of your driving offenses way back then, how is it that your permit wasn't pulled before it ever came up for renewal ? Did it all of the sudden become a problem when your renewal was due? And... if you are such a menace to the road how is it that they allow you to keep your drivers license when all the offenses were the result of an automobile, having nothing to do with a firearm. How is it that they are able to single out your CCW but never give you any grief about your DL.
Here's something you might be able to add to your defense.
So now it's time for your renwal. If you are such a threat because of your driving offenses way back then, how is it that your permit wasn't pulled before it ever came up for renewal ? Did it all of the sudden become a problem when your renewal was due? And... if you are such a menace to the road how is it that they allow you to keep your drivers license when all the offenses were the result of an automobile, having nothing to do with a firearm. How is it that they are able to single out your CCW but never give you any grief about your DL.
ID_shooting
Member
OK, My opinion in the case will certainly be unpopular, but here it goes...
I side w/ SC on this one based on what we know:
In 5 years, this young gentelman received 7 misdemenor violoations. That equates 1 every 8.5 months if they were evenly spaced. During the next three years, he has kept his nose clean.
The fact that these violations are vehicular related is immatterial, they are violations of the law.
OK, for 5 years there was a well proven track record of the willingness to disregard the rules of society and public safety. It will take longer than 3 years to counter that. As the old saying goes, "It take 3 attaboys to counter every oh sh*t."
Oh, and I would not flaunt being a former Marine on this issue. Being in the military does not equate being a responsible person and is likley to harm your case more than help, especially if you are trying to convince someone who is not in vavorable opinion of our armed forces. Case in point - several MPs in Iraq, a few Marines in Japan, and one John Kerry.
Again, this is just my opinion.
Now ducking the "flame bags" headed my way.
I side w/ SC on this one based on what we know:
In 5 years, this young gentelman received 7 misdemenor violoations. That equates 1 every 8.5 months if they were evenly spaced. During the next three years, he has kept his nose clean.
The fact that these violations are vehicular related is immatterial, they are violations of the law.
OK, for 5 years there was a well proven track record of the willingness to disregard the rules of society and public safety. It will take longer than 3 years to counter that. As the old saying goes, "It take 3 attaboys to counter every oh sh*t."
Oh, and I would not flaunt being a former Marine on this issue. Being in the military does not equate being a responsible person and is likley to harm your case more than help, especially if you are trying to convince someone who is not in vavorable opinion of our armed forces. Case in point - several MPs in Iraq, a few Marines in Japan, and one John Kerry.
Again, this is just my opinion.
Now ducking the "flame bags" headed my way.
I don't know about immaterial: a car is one of the deadliest "weapons" out there, statistically. Repeated lack of judgement and safety when operating one is inexcusable and perhaps indicative of a general mindset of putting self-gratification (getting there fast) over the safety of others. I can see where the state is coming from on the issue, though their timing sounds hokey here.
DragonFire
Member
While it may leave a bitter taste in your mouth, I think you need to show more remorse for your past "crimes".
I would ask them how long after your last infraction would become "responsible" again. If 3 years isn't enough, what is? They can't hold traffic tickets against you forever, can they? If the chief is just tring to eliminate permits, then nothing will really help, but if he's (at least thinks) he's just doing his job, then maybe showing him how unreasonable he's being might help.
If nothing else, maybe you can get a commitment from him (try to get it in writing) that in X number of years you could get your permit back. Yeah I know that isn't a good solution, but getting it back in 3 years is better than not getting it back at all, isn't it?
I would ask them how long after your last infraction would become "responsible" again. If 3 years isn't enough, what is? They can't hold traffic tickets against you forever, can they? If the chief is just tring to eliminate permits, then nothing will really help, but if he's (at least thinks) he's just doing his job, then maybe showing him how unreasonable he's being might help.
If nothing else, maybe you can get a commitment from him (try to get it in writing) that in X number of years you could get your permit back. Yeah I know that isn't a good solution, but getting it back in 3 years is better than not getting it back at all, isn't it?
ny32182
Member
This sounds like a really good thing to try.
As far as my permit went, I had traffic tickets on my record when I applied. My instructor told me to list EVERYTHING, yes, even traffic tickets in the "what have you been convicted of?" section of the permit application. He said you could be denied based on convictions you didn't list; even if they were traffic tickets. So, I had to call up the DMV and get my speeding ticket records from years past, and list them on the application. Mine was accepted.
I have yet to renew mine though. Does it have a "what have you been convicted of since last time?" section? Did you list your two "new" tickets from 3 years ago?
Smurfslayer
Member
SC doesn't recognize non res permits
SC law specifically excludes recgonition of a non resident of the state of issuance for permits. for example, although SC recipricates with UT, UT non res permits are not recognized.
USMC- I see 3 immediate arguments that you can make
1: Your permit should've been revoked, not denied renewal if you were such an "irresponsible" person. Your recent clean record indicates a pattern of lawful behavior. Do you have any non resident permits? If so, point out that other states have held you responsible for issuance...
2: You can make a strong case of "capricious and arbitrary" not to mention discriminatory denial of your state issued privilege which is essentially disenfranchising you. As an Honorably discharged Marine, you should be afforded the professional courtesy of having learned discipline, responsibility, as well as a thanks for serving your country.
3: I agree with (I think it was Rickstir) the previous poster. Compose a well and strongly worded letter to any local rep, mayor, state delegate, senator, the state AG, Governor, US rep, US Senators.
Put on the pissed off Marine hat, but be civil, respectful and politely express your outrage at these petty commisars.
Think number 3 is going too far?
I won a fight with the Alexandria VA DMV and got them to recognize my 'still good for one year' MD emissions inspection when I moved to VA. It was the DMV guy's fault, not mine. The DMV manager told me to take a hike. The COMMONWEALTH DMV superintendent saw it otherwise, and apologized to me on behalf of the dimwit branch manager, whom he agreed to scold. I did it by doing number 3 above. My Delegate was the one who had a staff member contact DMV. The Gov.'s office (Warner) followed up indicating that the DMV guy wanted to talk to me to "make this right"...
As a general comment - I think that by and large, we all are poorly trained drivers. Sometimes we behave less than responsibly, or are careless, and often times we take driving for granted. That said, most speeding tickets are for revenue generation, not compliance with the law or safety.
If it were *REALLY* about safety, then why don't the states step up and eliminate all traffic fines, replacing them with MANDATORY community service or jail time?
Take the financial incentive out of the equation.
Traffic law is the most abused by the police. It's used to create 'busy work' so that officers look like they're doing a lot, and more than a few traffic cops ought to not be in that line of work. Some drivers genuinely deserve punishment for an infraction, but most don't. Let's not even bring up the severely underposted speed limits.
Good luck USMC. keep us posted.
SC law specifically excludes recgonition of a non resident of the state of issuance for permits. for example, although SC recipricates with UT, UT non res permits are not recognized.
USMC- I see 3 immediate arguments that you can make
1: Your permit should've been revoked, not denied renewal if you were such an "irresponsible" person. Your recent clean record indicates a pattern of lawful behavior. Do you have any non resident permits? If so, point out that other states have held you responsible for issuance...
2: You can make a strong case of "capricious and arbitrary" not to mention discriminatory denial of your state issued privilege which is essentially disenfranchising you. As an Honorably discharged Marine, you should be afforded the professional courtesy of having learned discipline, responsibility, as well as a thanks for serving your country.
3: I agree with (I think it was Rickstir) the previous poster. Compose a well and strongly worded letter to any local rep, mayor, state delegate, senator, the state AG, Governor, US rep, US Senators.
Put on the pissed off Marine hat, but be civil, respectful and politely express your outrage at these petty commisars.
Think number 3 is going too far?
I won a fight with the Alexandria VA DMV and got them to recognize my 'still good for one year' MD emissions inspection when I moved to VA. It was the DMV guy's fault, not mine. The DMV manager told me to take a hike. The COMMONWEALTH DMV superintendent saw it otherwise, and apologized to me on behalf of the dimwit branch manager, whom he agreed to scold. I did it by doing number 3 above. My Delegate was the one who had a staff member contact DMV. The Gov.'s office (Warner) followed up indicating that the DMV guy wanted to talk to me to "make this right"...
As a general comment - I think that by and large, we all are poorly trained drivers. Sometimes we behave less than responsibly, or are careless, and often times we take driving for granted. That said, most speeding tickets are for revenue generation, not compliance with the law or safety.
If it were *REALLY* about safety, then why don't the states step up and eliminate all traffic fines, replacing them with MANDATORY community service or jail time?
Take the financial incentive out of the equation. Traffic law is the most abused by the police. It's used to create 'busy work' so that officers look like they're doing a lot, and more than a few traffic cops ought to not be in that line of work. Some drivers genuinely deserve punishment for an infraction, but most don't. Let's not even bring up the severely underposted speed limits.
Good luck USMC. keep us posted.
Brad Johnson
Member
USMCsilver,
Come on over to Texas - a Shall Issue state where minor traffic violations don't count, no matter how many you have. The only misdeameanor that will get you tossed is a Class A (violent) misdemeanor.
Brad
Come on over to Texas - a Shall Issue state where minor traffic violations don't count, no matter how many you have. The only misdeameanor that will get you tossed is a Class A (violent) misdemeanor.
Brad
USMCsilver
Member
Smurf, again, you have been vary valuable to this thread and I thank you for that.
You are indeed correct on #1. My permit should have been revoked, yet it was not. I feel that if I raise this issue, they will speak about how they are understaffed and cannot check for these things on a daily basis, yet, a practical counter to that would be stating that if it were that much of a determining factor, then it would be reviewed frequently.
#2 is a good point as well, but I feel that they would see it as moot.
As far as #3 goes, it is probably the best idea. However, I'm not too sure how to address the topic if I contact the big-wigs. I assume I will wait for another denial before I travel down that barren path.
You are indeed correct on #1. My permit should have been revoked, yet it was not. I feel that if I raise this issue, they will speak about how they are understaffed and cannot check for these things on a daily basis, yet, a practical counter to that would be stating that if it were that much of a determining factor, then it would be reviewed frequently.
#2 is a good point as well, but I feel that they would see it as moot.
As far as #3 goes, it is probably the best idea. However, I'm not too sure how to address the topic if I contact the big-wigs. I assume I will wait for another denial before I travel down that barren path.
USMCsilver
Member
Dragonfire, I agree that I should question how long I need a clean record before I can be considered for the permit, however, as previously mentioned, I did not want to raise that question in my 2nd appeal letter because it may sound like I am already facing defeat.
USMCsilver
Member
ID_shooting, you, sir, are indeed entitled to your opinion. Yeah, I messed up, but didn't you do some stupid stuff when you were younger, too?
Better yet, do you not speed? Do you never go a mere 1 mph over the speed limit? If you do, guess what, you are a law violator! The difference is, you just didn't get caught.
And as far as the Marine comment goes, I am proud to have the honor of serving my country, and some can relate to that. Yes, there are a few bad apples in every bunch, but this ain't one of them.
Better yet, do you not speed? Do you never go a mere 1 mph over the speed limit? If you do, guess what, you are a law violator! The difference is, you just didn't get caught.
And as far as the Marine comment goes, I am proud to have the honor of serving my country, and some can relate to that. Yes, there are a few bad apples in every bunch, but this ain't one of them.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
USMCsilver,
Sounds like something other than objectivity was involved in the decision to deny your renewal. Best of luck to you in your tussle with the bureaucracy, hope you come out ahead. Do keep posting to this thread, please.
lpl/nc
Sounds like something other than objectivity was involved in the decision to deny your renewal. Best of luck to you in your tussle with the bureaucracy, hope you come out ahead. Do keep posting to this thread, please.
lpl/nc
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Just to say - I am appalled by this apparent beaurocratic obfuscation ...... it does indeed appear very much to be a case of ''we'll deny any we can (get away with)''.
It would indeed be more than interesting to find out just how many ''in the department'' have old speeding tickets.
What a crock ..............
I sincerely hope the outcome can eventually be fruitful.
It would indeed be more than interesting to find out just how many ''in the department'' have old speeding tickets.
What a crock ..............
I sincerely hope the outcome can eventually be fruitful.
Jayman
Member
I'll only echo what some others have said:
YOU NEED TO GET OTHERS INVOLVED.
1. LAWYER
2. NRA
3. GOA
any other local gun rights groups. Were you in VA, I'd say VCDL.
YOU NEED TO GET OTHERS INVOLVED.
1. LAWYER
2. NRA
3. GOA
any other local gun rights groups. Were you in VA, I'd say VCDL.
RealGun
Member
This thing might be somewhat negotiable. Try to find out under what circumstances they would restore/reissue a permit to you. For example, if they agreed to renew based on three clean years, you would have to commit to being dead meat if you get two tickets in any successive year. I have had one speeding ticket in 44 years of driving, none in more than 20, I forget, so I wouldn't think much of an argument that a ticket was going to be inevitable. You simply have to take the law seriously. Forget about what everyone else is doing.
I live in SC but I am not sure if they have traffic school here. In CA, going to traffic school for 4 successive, 8 hour Saturdays is a way to avoid a ticket going on your record. My ticket was not for speeding but for an improper turn at a familiar intersection that had just been changed. I can attest that traffic school greatly increases your maturity as a driver.
You mentioned Grass Roots and NRA. You already have the option of going to Gun Owners of South Carolina, which is our state NRA group. Dennis Guillot is the SC State admin on packing.org and is directly involved in GOSC. You should contact him. I could be wrong, but I would have to say that Grass Roots is not very well oriented to either new or younger people. I don't really know about GOSC in that regard, but I do know that Dennis is a good guy.
I live in SC but I am not sure if they have traffic school here. In CA, going to traffic school for 4 successive, 8 hour Saturdays is a way to avoid a ticket going on your record. My ticket was not for speeding but for an improper turn at a familiar intersection that had just been changed. I can attest that traffic school greatly increases your maturity as a driver.
You mentioned Grass Roots and NRA. You already have the option of going to Gun Owners of South Carolina, which is our state NRA group. Dennis Guillot is the SC State admin on packing.org and is directly involved in GOSC. You should contact him. I could be wrong, but I would have to say that Grass Roots is not very well oriented to either new or younger people. I don't really know about GOSC in that regard, but I do know that Dennis is a good guy.
CCR
Member
USMCSilver,
I don't see how they can do that. How is this going to affect your FFL that you have for your refinishing business?
I don't see how they can do that. How is this going to affect your FFL that you have for your refinishing business?
http://instapundit.com/archives/014891.php
April 04, 2004
YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK (FOR THEMSELVES):
The law requires everyone to follow the speed limit and other traffic regulations, but in Suffolk County, exceptions should be made for cops and their families, police union officials say.
Police Benevolent Association president Jeff Frayler said Thursday it has been union policy to discourage Suffolk police officers from issuing tickets to fellow officers, regardless of where they work.
"Police officers have discretion whenever they stop anyone, but they should particularly extend that courtesy in the case of other police officers and their families," Frayler said in a brief telephone interview Thursday. "It is a professional courtesy."
Frayler's comments echo views expressed in the spring union newsletter, in which treasurer Bill Mauck exhorts "you don't summons another cop" and says that when officers decline to cite each other, "the emotion you feel should be that of joy."
Maurice Mitchell, a project coordinator with the Long Island Progressive Coalition, a nonprofit advocacy group, said the PBA's position undermines taxpayer confidence in law enforcement.
It's bad enough that they do this, but it's even worse that they brag about it. But wait, it gets worse:
Angie Carpenter, a Republican lawmaker from West Islip and chairwoman of the legislature's public safety committee, said she didn't have a problem with the PBA's policy because she believes it will be applied judiciously.
"It's the same way they would offer a professional courtesy to a doctor pulled over on the way to the hospital to deliver a baby," she said. "Besides, I can't imagine that if some police officer was to commit an egregious offense that they wouldn't be cited, regardless of who they are."
So much for political oversight. So a doctor en route to an emergency is the same as a cop who's just driving too fast? Sheesh. Are these people for real?
UPDATE: Rand Simberg observes:
While this is outrageous in itself, it would seemingly put the lie to the notion that the purpose of such laws in for public safety, since it's no "safer" for a police officer's wife to speed than it is for anyone else. It's a tacit admission that it's all about revenue generation. . . . Remember this the next time you hear a lecture from a cop about how dangerous it is to exceed the speed limit.
Indeed.
ANOTHER UPDATE: More here, including this bit:
Police departments often commend officers who have a knack for seizing drugs and arresting drunken drivers.
But in Bel-Ridge, such officers risk a stern warning.
Supervisors have warned some of them that busting bad guys or making time-consuming arrests distracts them from their true mission - generating money for the village.
Sheesh.
posted at 04:27 PM by Glenn Reynolds
April 04, 2004
YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK (FOR THEMSELVES):
The law requires everyone to follow the speed limit and other traffic regulations, but in Suffolk County, exceptions should be made for cops and their families, police union officials say.
Police Benevolent Association president Jeff Frayler said Thursday it has been union policy to discourage Suffolk police officers from issuing tickets to fellow officers, regardless of where they work.
"Police officers have discretion whenever they stop anyone, but they should particularly extend that courtesy in the case of other police officers and their families," Frayler said in a brief telephone interview Thursday. "It is a professional courtesy."
Frayler's comments echo views expressed in the spring union newsletter, in which treasurer Bill Mauck exhorts "you don't summons another cop" and says that when officers decline to cite each other, "the emotion you feel should be that of joy."
Maurice Mitchell, a project coordinator with the Long Island Progressive Coalition, a nonprofit advocacy group, said the PBA's position undermines taxpayer confidence in law enforcement.
It's bad enough that they do this, but it's even worse that they brag about it. But wait, it gets worse:
Angie Carpenter, a Republican lawmaker from West Islip and chairwoman of the legislature's public safety committee, said she didn't have a problem with the PBA's policy because she believes it will be applied judiciously.
"It's the same way they would offer a professional courtesy to a doctor pulled over on the way to the hospital to deliver a baby," she said. "Besides, I can't imagine that if some police officer was to commit an egregious offense that they wouldn't be cited, regardless of who they are."
So much for political oversight. So a doctor en route to an emergency is the same as a cop who's just driving too fast? Sheesh. Are these people for real?
UPDATE: Rand Simberg observes:
While this is outrageous in itself, it would seemingly put the lie to the notion that the purpose of such laws in for public safety, since it's no "safer" for a police officer's wife to speed than it is for anyone else. It's a tacit admission that it's all about revenue generation. . . . Remember this the next time you hear a lecture from a cop about how dangerous it is to exceed the speed limit.
Indeed.
ANOTHER UPDATE: More here, including this bit:
Police departments often commend officers who have a knack for seizing drugs and arresting drunken drivers.
But in Bel-Ridge, such officers risk a stern warning.
Supervisors have warned some of them that busting bad guys or making time-consuming arrests distracts them from their true mission - generating money for the village.
Sheesh.
posted at 04:27 PM by Glenn Reynolds
LoneStranger
Member
So the questions are;
How far back will they go in checking your driving record?
How long a time will driving record apply against you?
What written policy are they following?
What state statues are they using to justify their policy?
Politely ask them to supply access for your copying of all relevant statues and policy.
Till you have answers to these questions you are pretty much blowing smoke up everyone's, that includes you, tailfeathers.
Till I have answers to questions I can't offer any advice, good or bad.
How far back will they go in checking your driving record?
How long a time will driving record apply against you?
What written policy are they following?
What state statues are they using to justify their policy?
Politely ask them to supply access for your copying of all relevant statues and policy.
Till you have answers to these questions you are pretty much blowing smoke up everyone's, that includes you, tailfeathers.
Till I have answers to questions I can't offer any advice, good or bad.
USMCsilver
Member
Well, I have contacted my congressmen, senators, representatives, the GOA, and the NRA-ILA...we'll see what happens.
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