Design Evolution of American Pump-Shotguns

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Huh? My Ithacas (a 47 & 56) are easily as well made, and look it, as the Model 12's from that era I've looked at. I do want to get a 12 someday, more as a bucket list item than anything, but if I'm going out the door with pump, I want one of the Ithacas.

Ithaca has had a problem, repeatedly, of not being as big as it's ambitions require. But I love my 37's & want to get a 16 or 20 gauge NID someday as well.
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I don't have a '50s Model 12 to compare to, but compared to '50s, or even much later vintage 870s, the Ithaca 37 looks plain, even cheap. I'm not saying they aren't functionally well made but they simply don't have the same degree of finish.
 
Finish, fit & function are three different things.

Flash & bling and a bowling ball stock finish like an 870 doesn't make a 1950's Ithaca Model 37 work any better then it did then, or now.

It is/was still one of the best and lightest pump shotguns ever made.

rc
 
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I'm not argueing that they don't function well, they're my favorite pump actually, but the relative lack of "presentation" is probably a major reason they never sold particularily well in the past.
 
That they cost more ($105.00 MSRP) then a Rem 870 or Win 1200 ($99.95 MSRP) in 1967 didn't help any either.
Rems & Wins were discounted a lot in department stores of the day.
Not so much on the Ithaca.

$5.00 is a Starbucks coffee some places today.
But it was a half tank of Premium gas for your Dodge Charger back then.

rc
 
There is a whole lot of what I referred to as "not being big enough for their ambitions" in your comments, Youngster. But damn, all you have to do is pump an Ithaca and then pump anything cheaper to know better. The 37 is worth every d*** penny even if it isn't as pretty as some might think it should be.
 
Ithaca 37 is JMB's genius in motion. Thinner and smaller steel receiver with the least amount of moving parts inside it. Balances well and is featherlight. Probably the low number of moving parts also aids in its smoothness due to least points of contact creating friction.
 
No doubt a lot of people love the 37 and defend it vigorously. But it hasn't been enough to keep Ithaca from going up and down like a yo-yo. If you are not in business to make money, pretty soon you won't be in business to make anything. Well, it used to be anyways. Unless you can get government subsidies or loans these days, and it doesn't hurt to be an Obamanation to achieve that, a la Solyndra.
 
I bought my first Ithaca over 50 years ago and I still have it. The 4 that I have has never been in for repair. They are a delight to hunt with and butter smooth actions. My model 12 is heavy,and a very complex gun and has been to the gunsmith twice to be repaired. It is a fine gun but I prefer the Ithaca 37s. The company in Ohio are making beautiful guns with best grade walnut if you want it and I believe they are better made than the originals. I shot one about 6 months ago a friend bought for $950 and was much impressed with it. It was beautiful.
 
I have many Ithaca 37s, and a few Model 12s. I have to say that I have always like shooting and hunting with the Ithacas more. The Model 12s are nice gun and work very well, but I find my self looking at them more than shooting them. The new Ithacas from Ohio are beautiful guns, and their customer service is second to none.
 
Would you say the Win M12 is heavier and is better for clay sports whereas the Ithaca is lighter and balances well and is better for upland and ducks?

The only downside I can think of for the Ithaca is that the wrist tends to develop cracks that get worse over time.

P.S. Feel free to post your classic American pumps in this thread. It might as well become a knowledge thread for those interested in these uniquely American shooting irons.

I'll start:

2008 Mossberg 500A - Serves me well, accurate with foster slugs and steel shot, as well as lead for clays. LOP seems a little short for me after shouldering my M12 and M37, but it's dead nuts reliable that I know it will come through in the toughest conditions when I need it most. May consider changing out the safety to metal one day, but it seems to be fine now. Polymer trigger guard doesn't bother me, I did change the mag follower to a SJ Hardware orange delrin one since it's Hi-Vis and there's a nub for tactile verification. Feeding may also be smoother too. This gun is smooth but because it's built so lose, it catches on itself so the sliding of the action bars isn't a perfect straight glide, but rather wobbly and that is due to the flexible action bars.

Nov 2011 Sitka blacktail doe (1st deer with Federal Tru-Ball 1 oz slug at 20 yards)
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1948 Ithaca M37 Standard 12 ga - Shows character, light, nice black walnut stocks, handles very nicely, smoothest pump I own.

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Notice wrist cracks
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1955 Winchester M12 Standard 12 ga - My new favourite clay gun, heavy enough to shoot a lot, swings well with the long barrel, balance is perfect so the weight doesn't feel burdensome. 2nd smoothest pump I own. Always goes *ping* when the action locks or safety button pushed.

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I really enjoy the corn-cob fore-end on these older pumps. Anybody else like them too?
 
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cimg0971q.jpg
 
M97
m31
m12
?

I did some research and the Mossberg 500 series is NOT based off the High Standard Flight King as previously stated. The release dates of both guns are too close for that. The M500 is actually based off of the Remington Model 31, which in turn is based off the Remington Model 17. Look at some stock photos of the Rem 31 and you will see the similarities. Single take down pin, one action slide bar (Mossberg had this before switching to 2), shell elevator stays up for easy loading, dual extractors, straight shell feeding with the elevator. I'm sure there are more.
 
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wouldn't bottom feeding like the Ithaca be problematic for the clay sports like trap? seems like it would be awkward relative to dropping a shell in the ejection port on an 870, m12, etc.
 
Yes, Owen, I agree. Dakota, the reason you see cracks in the Ithaca 37 wrist area is mostly because the gun is being shot when the stock becomes loose a little. When and if they do become loose, one must take the butt pad off and tighten the screw or nut in the recess where it is found. Walnut will crack easily in this area because of the amount of force on such a small area. My Ithacas have never developed cracks in this area and they are old guns too.
 
Dakota, the Mossberg design was an original design from its inception. I find some of what he said to be suspect. For instance, most gunsmiths, who work on these guns and know them much better than us shooters will give very poor marks for the early Stevens and Savage guns. I had one made in the early 50s and it was the worst gun I ever had , although it was my first shotgun. Also the High Standard guns had inherent structural problems. I can understand why those who think the model 12 as the "Holy Grail" of pump guns would not like the Model 1200-1300 but that opinion is not shared by the vast majority of hunters and shooters who have used them for decades. Gunsmiths who have worked on these guns for decades are ones best source for "opinions".. Snoop
 
I think I want a Remington 31 in my collection! They look real nice.
 
wouldn't bottom feeding like the Ithaca be problematic for the clay sports like trap? seems like it would be awkward relative to dropping a shell in the ejection port on an 870, m12, etc.
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It isn't hard to put a round into the chamber from the bottom, the loading/ejection forks aren't under any kind of tension and just move out of the way for you.
 
Oh Turtlefish, I think a need a vintage Wingmaster like yours next! The Rem 31 can wait. How smooth is the action? Fixed full choke I presume?
 
Oh Turtlefish, I think a need a vintage Wingmaster like yours next! The Rem 31 can wait. How smooth is the action? Fixed full choke I presume?
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:D
She's buttery smooth, and yes, 28" fixed full. It's amazing what you can find if you look around. I got an 18.5" barrel for the "riot gun" look and it's awesome with the corncob foreend, but it's too dark to take pics right now. I'll add 'em sometime in the morning.
 
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