Different "kinds" of deer and cartridge/bullet choice

[WisBorn]

I'd be willing to bet neither shot was placed correctly.
If it's brushy. I like larger bore guns. If it's far out. I like 6.5 or 7 mm.

One of the shots was angled and took one lung no exit. The bullet did not expand (22-250).

The other was front shoulder. I found the hunter (public land) who shot her after a quarter mile hike. I didn't wait for him to field dress the animal.
Both deer were adult doe in Wisconsin.

I think the 243 is a good minimum caliber, and with reduced recoil loads 7mm and 30 cal rifles are tolerable for most shooters. My opinion

 

[WisBorn]

I have a 6.5 CM I fire Federal 140 nontypicals thru, which I would put against any kind of deer.

Thanks for the bullet recommendation. I bought a box of 130 grain nontypicals for my 270 win today. I will try them at the range tomorrow for an accuracy test.

 

[CapnMac]

Concur, locality matters a lot.

Down in the river bottoms of the Navasota and Brazos really, a ball peen hammer about 2# would have been enough for the white tail seen there. Visibility through the brush of the bottoms was probably more critical than the round used. Out of the river bottoms, things were different (and out to the west there were got-loose Axis deer). Now, get down to the far edge of the Hill Country, where the mulies hang out--you wanted a bit more oomph. Also, the sight lines were longer, too. (You want your head on a swivel, too,--while you are glassing for deer 200-300 yards away, a troop of javelina might object to your habit of breathing regularly and wish to interupt same.)

 

[Fyrstyk]

The only things I've seen shot with the larger Muzzleloaders have been feral goats, which while not very large (ok small), are irritatingly tough. I was impressed with how well the big round balls worked on those guys as long as they hit bone. I'd like to see how they fair on other game, but lacking any real desire to own one I'll have to wait till I see someone else using one.

The big bore muzzle loader balls do not have to hit bone to harvest a deer. In the case of my .58, the diameter of the ball alone is generally larger than most CF rounds expanded, and the soft lead used to make muzzle loader balls will flatten out on impact at the closer ranges (under 50 yards). Not much different than a 20 gauge slug at about the same velocity.

 

[LoonWulf]

The big bore muzzle loader balls do not have to hit bone to harvest a deer. In the case of my .58, the diameter of the ball alone is generally larger than most CF rounds expanded, and the soft lead used to make muzzle loader balls will flatten out on impact at the closer ranges (under 50 yards). Not much different than a 20 gauge slug at about the same velocity.

Feral goats arnt very thick, maybe a foot across at the most. What I've seen with the ball hitting behind the shoulder was that it passed thru making a ball size hole.
Critter was dead but they can suck up an amazing amount of damage, and it ran from the guy who shot it originally up to me and I shot it again. My shot hit about 2" in front of where the other guy hit and just punched a 45 cal hole in and out.
We got it, and both shots were lethal. His took out the front of the stomach and back of both lungs, mine went thru just forward of that.

That head and shoulder are from an average size goat, which is what I mean about them not offering much resistance, and wanting to see what a round ball will do on a larger animal.

.

 

[Bfh_auto]

One of the shots was angled and took one lung no exit. The bullet did not expand (22-250).

The other was front shoulder. I found the hunter (public land) who shot her after a quarter mile hike. I didn't wait for him to field dress the animal.
Both deer were adult doe in Wisconsin.

I think the 243 is a good minimum caliber, and with reduced recoil loads 7mm and 30 cal rifles are tolerable for most shooters. My opinion

How does a bullet fail to expand while failing to penetrate?
I shot a huge doe in the UP with a 22-250 that had the heart and lungs gelatinized at 430 yards.
The bullet may fail to penetrate if a poor shot is made because of over expansion.

 

[WisBorn]

How does a bullet fail to expand while failing to penetrate?
I shot a huge doe in the UP with a 22-250 that had the heart and lungs gelatinized at 430 yards.
The bullet may fail to penetrate if a poor shot is made because of over expansion.

My friend that used the 22-250 found the bullet in the hindquarter. He said that it didn't open up !?

With the poor shot angle other cartridges may have reaped the same result.
From my forty + years of experience using everything from 25-06 to 300 wm I'll use more bullet.
I know that many people have used 22 cal cartridges with success. I mentioned in my first post in this thread, bullets have improved for the 22 center fire and are legal in many states.
I prefer more bullet weight/diameter this is based on my experience. Yes shot placement is key and poorly placed shot from large caliber cartridges result in a wounded animals (I have seen this too).

 

[earlthegoat2]

I have no scientific evidence and only a little bit of anecdotal evidence but I just don’t fully buy into the “modern bullets” mantra that has been going around for the last decade or so.

Old technology has worked very well for me. Shotgun slugs and large diameter projectiles going at slow to moderate speeds. These have produced such good results I am hesitant to use anything else. All this backed up by the muzzleloader enthusiasts posting previously.

My main beef is if modern bullets are so good then heavier and larger diameter modern bullets going faster are that much better as well. Small bullets make small holes modern or not. Penetration and weight retention seem to be the only characteristics that make a “modern” bullet different. Small holes can and do kill animals when put in the right spot but the marginal wounding capability of say a .224 bullet leaves me very hesitant to even consider one. If the 22 cal crowd is patient and waits for a good shot like I would with a marginal range shotgun then I have no quarrel.

I keep feeling the “modern bullet” mantra as an excuse and a rationalization to use an inferior cartridge. In both hunting and SD.

 

[drobs]

Every year my local paper post pics of the 2 day youth deer hunt.
Every year I see plenty of yoots killing deer with 223 rifles. Here's a few from this year.





Here's mine from 2019.

I have to wonder about you anti-223 hunters. Maybe you should have your grandsons hunt for you.

 

[Fyrstyk]

Every year my local paper post pics of the 2 day youth deer hunt.
Every year I see plenty of yoots killing deer with 223 rifles. Here's a few from this year.

View attachment 954461View attachment 954462View attachment 954463View attachment 954464

View attachment 954465

Here's mine from 2019.

Shot placement with the proper bullet is what it takes to down a deer. That being said, many states do not allow cartridges less than .243 for deer hunting, so you have to use what you shoot best.

I have to wonder about you anti-223 hunters. Maybe you should have your grandsons hunt for you.

 

[Fyrstyk]

Shot placement with the proper bullet is what it takes to down a deer. That being said, many states do not allow cartridges less than .243 for deer hunting, so you have to use what you shoot best.

 

[Chuck R.]

I generally subscribe to the "deer is a deer" theory, so I don't sweat the capability of killing one. Really, they're pretty easy to kill. I also don't sweat an animal being DRT, most that I've hit properly (double lung) have gone a bit before falling down. I do prefer something in the 6mm or heavier though, cause sometimes chit happens and sometimes "perfection is the enemy of good enough" when it comes to shot placement.

What I concern myself with and tailor my hunting guns to is more the terrain/conditions that I'll be hunting in. Kind of like the army's METT-TC approach to doing things. I don't like using a 3000 plus FPS cartridge when I have pretty good certainty that the shot will be close. I also don't like handicapping myself IF I have an idea the shot could be long. I like task/purpose driven hunting guns.

So I use the "golf club" approach and end up with a rack of rifles. To compensate for the shot may be long or close, stalking type situation I go with a bonded bullet to ensure it holds up and doesn't wreck a bunch of meat.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

For me, I don't give much thought to bullet selection for whitetails with larger calibers.
In .308 Win, .30-06, .270 (and dozens of similar rounds), any cup and core style bullet will do the trick just fine.
When shooting lighter stuff, I put a little more thought into it.
For .243 Win, I like to choose a bullet that I know will hold together and give adequate penetration. I just sighted in the wife's .243 yesterday with some 100 grain Nosler Partitions I loaded. Near MOA so I'm pleased with the accuracy. I'm going to take it out and see if they really make any difference.

 

[Berserker]

The Remington Core-Lokt was invented in 1933 and in most surveys is stilled listed in the top 3 bullets still used today. That being said, In two hunting groups I 've been with, one in Wisconsin and one in the U.P. of Michigan the common gun among 10 hunters is a 30.06; Remington pumps and bolt actions and a Garand ..

I am the only in my circle in UP using pump.

Core-lokt has killed more deer than CWD. Though deer are not hard to kill, and most hunters don't put alot of effort. I can't say I have done any better with partion than coreloct.

I was on forum where they they felt you were a caveman using bigger than .223. People kill deer with arrows. They also were hunting big country. Where I am at 100 yards feels like a 1000, when looking for down deer. Also some areas you see enough deer, you can wait for broad side shot. Not where I am at. Sometimes lots of time, some times short time to shoot the only buck you see.

 

[Random 8]

I am the only in my circle in UP using pump.

Core-lokt has killed more deer than CWD. Though deer are not hard to kill, and most hunters don't put alot of effort. I can't say I have done any better with partion than coreloct.

I was on forum where they they felt you were a caveman using bigger than .223. People kill deer with arrows. They also were hunting big country. Where I am at 100 yards feels like a 1000, when looking for down deer. Also some areas you see enough deer, you can wait for broad side shot. Not where I am at. Sometimes lots of time, some times short time to shoot the only buck you see.

Had one just like that this evening. Not an especially large doe, dead broadside at 80 yards. With the double lung hit, a 223 55 grain would have done the job. As it was, a snap offhand shot in the woods with a second or 2 to decide, aim and fire, I was happy to have a 7mm 154 grain at 2500 in case the shot had gone a few inches off course. The mushroom out the off side was a bonus as well when she bee lined into heavy cover, leaving a blood trail that could be followed by feel.

 

[horsey300]

I agree! As far as match bullets that are not designed for game they should not be used. Yes some will work, but with highly accurate hunting bullets why would you use target ammo.

I'm not a fan of 22 caliber for deer there has been improvements in bullet design, but in my experience after having to shoot two wounded deer. One was shot with 22-250 and one with a 223. It is not a good choice.

Yes where legal it's that, but ethical????

My sniper punk kid would argue that, I worked up special loads for him, (62 gr swift scirocco 2@3200) we'll come back to that in a second, my folks' hired man has cleanly taken deer for 5 years with a .223 ever since his shoulder surgery, only needing one shot per tag, I load 50gr ttsx as hot as I can in .223, no deer yet but ballistics are promising. Back to my punk kid, this year, we spot a nice 200 ish lb muley, we had practiced round after round all summer and he's sub 5 inches at 300 yds, this kid gets down to 60 yds on this buck and knocks him over like a mack truck. I now give him a hard time because I wanted to really test this load on game and he put it right through the brain, will update after I have more useful data, but so far.... bullet construction and placement still rule the field, exit was just over an inch at the light switch, looking forward to the wife taking a pronghorn with the same load later..... Not knocking your view as I personally have chased too many wounded critters from shooters (read not hunters that know their gear) that were less than appropriately prepared for the day, same shooters used everything from .243-.30-06 and I will still recommend many of the choices in between i reckon......, for a newbie, I like enough terminal shock to end the show early for sure, but that can still be accomplished with a proper .22cf

 

[Random 8]

Second doe of the season is another interesting case study. Rifle .280 Rem slightly downloaded to 2500fps range with old stock Hornady 154RN. Deer quartering towards, partially obscured. Range 100ish yards. I would normally take a high neck shot on such a meat deer, but she was rather twitchy so CNS was a dicey target. I took her just forward of the leading shoulder blade, bullet quartered through both lungs and into liver, lodging under far side of hide behind the diaphram. I would not have wanted to shoot this deer thusly with a violently expanding bullet. She likely would have been DRT, but would have lost an unacceptable amount of meat. A .22 centerfire, or even a .243 with anything but a Barnes X or similar would have been out of the question. Confidence shot with the .280 and little meat loss, I actually would have liked a little more bullet to have an exit, and she still ran 75 yards with scant blood trail.

 

[entropy]

As good a shot as you can take in that instance. I would have either had to pass or wait for a better angle with my .223.

 

[WisBorn]

As good a shot as you can take in that instance. I would have either had to pass or wait for a better angle with my .223.

I'm glad hear that you have the patience and respect for the animal to pass on angled shots with smaller caliber rifles. Many people don't.

 

[entropy]

Thanks. I raised my sons to that standard, too. The younger one didn't got the accuracy part down as well-missed a deer at 50 yards 6 times with my AMD-65. But he 'had to hunt with dad's AK'....He wanted it in his senior picture, they wouldn't let him. His bow was OK, though.
He's a decent shot now; that was 6 years ago, when he was 16-I think it was buck fever.

 

[GAF]

I like Remington Core-Lokt in 308 and 30 06. They punch right through the deer on a broadside shot and wreck everything in it`s path. DRT most of the time. Shot a doe today. Hit it a little high right behind the shoulder and it was a bang flop bleat dead.Good old Remington Core-Lokt in 308.
I use 150`s in 308 and 165`s in 30 06, I also like 12 gauge Brenneke KO`s. These are the only rounds I have killed deer with,

 

[9x56MS]

I am still hunter that hunts the thick stuff similar to the oops terrain (I know because I went moose hunting near Baguette Minnesota about 10 years ago.) I am in the bigger hole with exit camp. I like 35 caliber rifles with round nose bullets unless I know shots could be from 250-350 yards then I use Spitzer bullets.

 

[entropy]

Baudette, perhaps?

My Dad got his moose near Hallock in the NW corner of MN, on his 50th BD, also his retirement date.

 

[9x56MS]

Baudette, perhaps?

My Dad got his moose near Hallock in the NW corner of MN, on his 50th BD, also his retirement date.

Yes Baudette. Dam. Auto correct. Saw my first wolf in the wild on that trip also. Heard them Howling a couple of nights too.

 

[Kevinq6]

I wouldn't think a big deer would be too much harder to kill than a smaller one. I'd think about the bullet/caliber a little more when using a smaller caliber like .223 (which I'd prefer not to) but even with smaller deer if the caliber were small I'd watch the angle. It is fun to pick which caliber and I think the other comments about what gun works best in which area would matter more.