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Disgusted with Republicans again.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Hack, Jul 10, 2004.

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  1. Hack

    Hack Member

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    I've been of the opinion that voting for other than bush is a vote for kerry while maintaining that I would vote Libertarian in this year's elections in races other than presidential.
    I have championed this belief with conviction in various arguments both online and elsewhere while simultaneously being sickened by the Republican party's insidious replacement of their ideology with the populist crap flavor of the day.
    In my mind Socialists must fail.

    I have shut up altogether lately due to administration warnings of terror attacks due up here this summer.
    These warnings include statements that terrorists were able to change Spain's vote and so they want to do the same thing here before the election.

    Social engineering crap.
    There's no question Spain was going to stay right in their election and in that they were very different than we are now just before our election.
    Terrorists had nothing to lose in Spain and their gamble paid off big time by taking Spain out of the equation. Spain will suffer.
    If terrorists were to attack here over the summer this country would certainly rally behind the president and send the socialists back under mother rock thus defeating terrorist aims.
    These animals have in past shown remarkable patience and cunning. I don't believe they would step on their own by attacking here before the election.

    This warning along with stuff like alien amnesty and even the thought of world court control over our military has, for me, crystalized how close republicans are to stinkin' socialists and may well be the end of my affiliation with the republican party.
    I can no longer stomach justifying this kind of stuff as a means to an end.
     
  2. GeneC

    GeneC member

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    so·cial·ism
    Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"li-z&m
    Function: noun
    1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
    2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
    3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done


    Hack, lets first make clear which Party leans toward Socialism by defining just what socialism is. To me, the Democratic Party is more socialistic than the Republican Party because to me, MORE Govt intervention and control is socialism. Welfare, food stamps , govt health care, etc is socialism. When SOCIAL services can come into your home and take your children, that's socialism. Please explain to me how alien amnesty is socialism and where you think the Govt has given military control over to world court?
     
  3. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    GeneC-

    I'm not going to presume to answer hack's question for him, but here are just a few examples of Bush and his very obviously socialist leanings:

    1)With much fanfare, passed Ted Kennedy's bloated education bill.

    2)Approved the biggest expansion of government-paid health benefits in more than 10 years. (Medicare, Medicaid.)

    3)Open admission of support for reauthorizing the ban on so-called "assault weapons"

    4)Supported instituting taxation on imported steel.

    I could continue, but there's no need. In essence, choosing between Republicans and Democrats is nothing more than an exercise in splitting hairs.

    Modern politics is all just Coke vs. Pepsi style marketing.

    edited for clarity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2004
  4. Shanghai McCoy

    Shanghai McCoy Member

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    Will Rodgers once said that there was'nt a nickles worth of differance between the two parties....he's still right.
     
  5. GeneC

    GeneC member

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    Justin, how can you equate any of that with socialism?

    1) can you provide a link to the bill?
    2) How is expanding Govt health care (I'm assuming you're talkin about expanding the health care benefits of govt employees)?
    3) assault weapons-war on terrorism, times are different now.
    4) How is taxing imported steel socialistic?
     
  6. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    I have to disagree. My view is the republican party has no discernable belief system. And I find that to be far more dangerous than any communist, marxist, socialist or islamofascist system. The man or woman or party that believes in nothing is capable of anything. Rules of conduct break down. Social policy devolves into acquisition of power.

    If I wanted to elect socialists I would elect democrats. I may disagree with a socialist agenda but at least it is an agenda. I get the willies looking at a party that one day professes adherance to the constitution and the next day signs legislation that directly attacks political speech. I get really scared of a political strategy that says, "Hey, we can just become the other party by taking away their issues." Republicans at one time stood for (didn't say were) limited government and limited spending. So now we find those same republicans are probably the biggest spenders in our history, and all for the purpose of expanding government.

    It is frightening to see republicans morph from day to day just to acquire power. A Kerry election will cause us to head for a socialist/communist/internationalist future at a rapid rate. A Bush re election will push us toward an internationalist future. I just don't know what kind.
     
  7. capt. Nemo

    capt. Nemo Member

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    Socialism

    GeneC,

    Expanding government supplementation of ANYTHING is socialism. Where do you think the funds for government spending comes from?

    How does regulating "assault weapons" equate to the war on terrorism? Do the 'different times" dictate an erosion of rights for the law-abiding, patriotic, LEGAL Americans?

    I'm not saying that all social programs are wrong. There are many that, properly administered, are extremely beneficial to society as a whole. Unfortunately, there are very few...maybe none that are government run...that are properly administered.

    Just my two cents worth...

    Buck
     
  8. GeneC

    GeneC member

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    Capt Nemo, you mean to tell me that if the Pres signs a bill to allow more options to govt workers on their health care, that's socialism?

    Where do funds come from? Depends on the party Dems get it by cutting back on the military and raising taxes, not mention taxing SS, which should never have happened.


    Assault rifles don't equate to the war on terrorism. We are at war, different rules; terrorists use assault rifles, they need to be regulated, but not banned. How do you equate regulated to banned?


    I still haven't seen a definition of socialism, I've seen examples of non socialistic things being called socialist, so I have to wonder....
     
  9. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    Yet more evidence that one can quote the definition of a word without having any understanding of its meaning...

    - Chris
     
  10. capt. Nemo

    capt. Nemo Member

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    Expansion of benefits

    It depends on whether the "options" cause my taxes to increase at the expense of another government sponsored fubar. The notion that government employees deserve more and/or better benefits than the general population just because they "work for the government" sticks in my craw. I don't know 1-in-1000 federal, state or local government employees that "serve" out of a sense of patriotism or duty. 999 out that 1,000 are in it because it pays well, has great benefits and retirement, affords some - more or less - power and influence and, as long as everybody keeps paying taxes, offers lifelong employment with retirement at the end.

    There's nothing mystical about being a government employee. Been to have your driver's license renewed lately? Had somebody else's mail delivered to your house or vice-versa?

    What branch of the government DO you work for?
     
  11. GeneC

    GeneC member

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    Chris, why don't you enlighten me? I've never actually lived in a Socialistic govt, so all I can go by IS the definition, which says a govt where there's no private property, nope not America, a society where the Govt controls all production and distribution, again , not in America.
     
  12. capt. Nemo

    capt. Nemo Member

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    Regulated vs. banned

    If you think that regulation will keep "assault weapons" out of the hands of bad guys,. you're on the wrong side:confused:
     
  13. GeneC

    GeneC member

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    Come on Nemo, you know as well as I do that nothing will stop a BG from getting anything they want, but it'll sure slow them down, compared to the alternative.
     
  14. capt. Nemo

    capt. Nemo Member

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    Pm

    Gene,

    PM on the way. I'm curious about your line of thinking. I'm always open to learning new viewpoints. Let's get it off the thread.

    Talk to you soon.

    Buck
     
  15. cloudkiller

    cloudkiller Member

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    Again, exaggerated labels

    Neither the democrats nor the reps are true socialists. They advocate different elements in a mixed market system. Democrats tend to favor more government control over economic forces, as well as more regulations that restrict material activities in the name of the common good. They also tend to favor government programs to provide for people perceived as needy and disadvantaged. Reps on the other hand favor regulation that limits regulation and liability of business interests, but will favor taxation for the sake of advancing specific business interests, for example business incentives to specific industries. Republicans will favor regulation to limit individual behavior in moral arena, regulating expression more than democrats. They will also favor regulation to allow public money to be used for religious interests.

    The fact is, we have never, ever had a system that was free of government, public money, or government resources for specific ends. We have had bouts where certain facist principles were advanced, and bouts where more socialist influences have come into play. With the growth of government and regulation we have "more" socialist influences playing into the mixed market system we enjoy. HOWEVER, we are hardly a socialist country.

    The terrorist activities in Spain have nothing to do with Social Engineering crap. What happened was crap and evil, but that isn't the term for it. Social engineering is passing laws to limit racial mixing, or inter-class mixing, etc.

    Amnesty for illegal aliens is actually more of a libertarian position than a socialist one. Most countries that lean more towards socialism have far more restrictive regulations concerning immigrants than we do. In the days of less regulation, such as at the turn of the century, immigration doors were far wider open (legal immigration) than they are now.
     
  16. achadwick

    achadwick Member

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    Good post, Justin.

    I'm voting Libertarian this time around.
     
  17. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Well said, Waitone!

    Unless it's an extremely close election in Colorado, I'll vote Libertarian. Every time I vote for the lesser of two evils, I end up voting for evil.
     
  18. GeneC

    GeneC member

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    What a bunch of hooey. Anybody that believes in anything or something or nothing is capable of anything or nothing or something...blah blah blah blah blah. And some thinks that's cosmic, hardyharhar.

    I'm tired of all this belly aching about how everthing isn't perfect, guess what, it never will be until we clean house in Congress. if an elected official doesn't vote for their district , boot them out that week. We could all push and elect officials who'll push for Constitutional ammendments to make Congress balance the budget annually (and that'll take care of alot of wasteful spending).

    First there's folk bitching 'cause illegal aliens are coming over and taking jobs and then getting on welfare and SSI and not paying taxes and how much it costs taxpayers for health care for them and to patrol the borders and round them up and send them back, just so they can come back across tomorrow, it's a big joke in this Country. Thing is , they're doing backbreaking , menial work that NOBODY here wants to do for the measely pay they get. So this President tries to come up with a solution and folks bitch about that too. Amnesty, amnesty for what? Because they want to come over here and make a living? I say let them, but sign up and pay taxes and get citizenship and do it the right way. I tell ya , I think it's a great idea. What better way to keep track of them and let them start paying taxes too. Not to mention the money saved rounding them up all the time.

    I want anyone here who thinks they can do a better job, get off yer butt and go do it.
     
  19. MrAcheson

    MrAcheson Member

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    Hi, government employee here. I am a civilian working for the US Army. For the record, we may get slightly better benefits than private industry folks. We start with 13 vacation days where most private industry folks only get 10. Medical is the same, I have blue cross. Gone are the days of pensions, I essentially have a government administrated 401k similar to what lots of companies use.

    To balance benefits we get paid a lot less. Anyone who says that government service is where to make money is a fool. I could easily be making 10k more in private industry doing contracting. Why don't I? Government service gives me the employment stability my dad never had as an engineer in the aircraft industry. Plus I get to serve my country in a time of war, which despite the statistics you pulled from your ass, is a big motivator for myself and my coworkers. So far I haven't been sent to Iraq yet. Yet.

    As for influence, what am I a congressional staffer? My job is governed by lots of rules written by people way way above my pay grade. To say that I have power and influence is a steaming pantload. The typical employee is me, not Senator Bedfellows Foriegn Policy Wonk or any sort of policy maker. The ???? runs down hill to us.

    Before you blame the government for the wait at the DMV, think about the wait at your Drs. Office or to get your car fixed or any number of other places that have nothing to do with government. Its the same folks in different outfits. I've spoken to enough people working for Big Business that I know Government isn't really any different. Big Business pinches its pennies in different places, they give more salary but less benefits and stability.
     
  20. capt. Nemo

    capt. Nemo Member

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    Government service

    MrAcheson,

    If I don't like waiting in line at my Dr's office or the oil change place or the barber shop, I go to another one. As far as I know there aren't many choices when it comes to things like driver's license renewal, tags, titles and the like. Waiting in line to pay a surly, lazy clerk who's being paid by my tax money sticks in my craw...can't cough it up and can't swallow it.

    Blue Cross? How much does it cost you a month?

    You get paid a lot less? Less than who? If you could be "easily" making $10,000 more in the private sector you really ARE a patriot and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. People who make that kind of sacrifice are few and far between these days.

    The "statistics" I referred to weren't meant to be statistics. It was just a generalization. Maybe it is 1-in 772.

    Thankyou for your service.
     
  21. Hack

    Hack Member

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    Enlightening but that should read:
    Neither the democrats nor the reps are true socialists. Today.

    They both appear to me to be on the inexorable march to totalitarianism whether true socialism or some funky form of fascism.
    What's the difference if one is at socialism's doorstep and the other has a few years before total conversion if they're both on the road?
    I'm sick of making the distinction.


    The bush administration is putting out stuff I don't think they believe true to scare as many people as possible into rallying around the president.
    Societal Coersion using a basic human instinct.
    If the administration's claims are knowingly based on falsehood the term Social Engineering seems fitting indeed with or without laws attached.
    If this warning is based on the administration's actual beliefs we may find ourselves truly screwed as they would seem way too ready to clamp down for any whim, logical or not.
    I don't think the admin believes their own spin and this is sheep herding.
    I'm done.


    Anybody care to chime in?


    Gene.....you've sold your soul.
     
  22. Cool Hand Luke 22:36

    Cool Hand Luke 22:36 member

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    That's a myth.

    Illegals are working in jobs like trucking, auto mechanics, skilled construction trades, meatpacking, heavy equipment operations, small businesses, etc. They are displacing American workers in huge numbers from what used to be very well paying jobs.

    Bush's strong advocacy of an open border immigration policy towards Mexico is one of the primary reasons I won't be voting for him again.
     
  23. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    The Democrats won't repeal any of the War on Terrorism laws. So, about all that's left is comparing the two parties' meddling in my life and their attacks on my billfold.

    From my observations since LBJ went in, the Democrats hurt me more than the Republicans, on a daily basis.

    So, as usual, it's the lesser of two weevils. The cornmeal is still spoiled, but with the Republicans it's less so.

    I still think the Perot thing gave us Clinton. Nader's run helped Dubya in 2000. And I danged sure don't want Kerry.

    So, I'll hold my nose and vote for Bush in the Presidential race. Anti-gun activism is a Democrat thing...

    Art
     
  24. Hack

    Hack Member

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    I think a lot of people here understand the democratic party was hijacked by megalomaniacal lunacy.
    I see that same process occurring in the republican ranks.
    I'm done.
    My vote don't make any difference anyway. I live in upstate NY.
    We're red.
     
  25. GeneC

    GeneC member

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